Monteroy

Actually, you kind of are one. You are doing what all conspiracy buffs do, you take a variety of "facts" (often without full context or information) and mold them to fit your theory of how and why something took place.

Your blackjack example for instance. What does that prove? According to you it implies that UB freezes temporarily accounts of people who run hot in BJ as some piece of a sinister plot.

Maybe it is automated process when an account gains a lot of money in a very, very short time. You know, like what would happen if it was on the receiving end of a chip dumping scheme.

The latter would be a reasonable, though at times inconvenient, security measure, but that would not fit into the whole UB is cheating players belief structure as well, so instead it is better to imply they stop their players from continuing to play a -EV game for more malicious reasons.

Your other facts are pieced together second/third/fourth hand information from other message boards all to fit the UB/Absolute are sinister cheater beliefs.


In the end you are fully entitled to believe whatever you wish to believe, and if you want to believe that UB and Absolute's mission statement is to cheat their players - then go for it. Many players will likely not place a lot of value on your "facts" because as I already mentioned they are rehashes of a lot of angry posts merged together to fit a theory you have about what happened, and in the end it will not really impact nearly all of the players anyways.

You may think it is morally wrong for a person to play at UB/Absolute, and again that is your right, however we are talking about online gambling, which falls a bit short in terms of overall morality compared to lead paint in kids toys for instance, so do not be surprised if your appeal to others morality falls short when it comes to online gambling.

Oh, one other thing about conspiracy people. They are quick to declare those that do not believe them as an idiot in some manner .

All the best.

_obv_

Honestly if you can't see how UB has lied and how their story is incredibly flawed you are either dumb or ignorant.

Go check out the 2+2 pokercast where they interview some guy from UB... it is actually pretty comical how bad he comes off in the interview

Two Plus Two Pokercast presented by PokerStars VIP Club

_obv_

APs first press release





Absolute Poker takes all allegations of player fraud and collusion extremely seriously. Fair play and security are of paramount importance to us. Our Security and Fraud Department is dedicated to ensuring that everyone on the site has a fair opportunity to win, and that no improper methods, devices, programs and/or other unfair advantages are ever utilized in our games.
We were greatly concerned by a recent thread on the 2+2 forums along with emails and other communications we received, regarding alleged player fraud. We thank the vigilant players who reported this matter to us, giving us an opportunity to investigate these serious allegations. We spent extensive resources thoroughly investigating and analyzing our players’ claims. While our investigation is ongoing, we feel that we have enough information at this point to share with you some of our findings.
Please be advised, that we will continue to investigate each and every claim of wrong-doing on an individual basis and we will report any further significant findings that are appropriate for public review. Also, please keep in mind, while we endeavor to provide as much information as possible on a public level, we take our players’ privacy issues very seriously, and will never compromise this. As a matter of Company policy, Absolute Poker never divulges personal information about our players nor do we make public any hand information that did not go to a showdown, ever. As a result, we are limited in terms of the level of information that we can provide for public review.
In response to the allegations, we froze the accounts of the players in question while we performed an extensive investigation. The result of our investigation is that we found no evidence that any of Absolute Poker’s redundant and varying levels of game client security were compromised. In other words, we have determined with reasonable certainty that it is impossible for any player or employee to see hole cards as was alleged. There is no part of the technology that allows for a “superuser” account, and there is no way for any person to influence the game software to their advantage. We base this finding on a thorough security check on a technological level, coupled with a thorough investigation of hand histories including those that did not go to a showdown. As a part of our investigation, we also tested the integrity of our certified random number generator (“RNG”.) We determined that our RNG was not compromised either.
Details of the investigation
We combed through all hands involving the accounts that were mentioned in the online forums. Please note that only a select number of hands were featured in the threads. Our ongoing investigation continues to show that there were countless instances where a somewhat unorthodox poker strategy resulted in a loss. Allegations that the player accounts at issue “always guessed right” are unfounded.
We examined screen shots from Poker Tracker Software that displayed an “infinite” river aggression factor for one of the player accounts at issue. We examined similar screen shots which showed a lower but still relatively high river aggression factor. We were very concerned by this anomaly. Accordingly, we reviewed each and every hand that this player played during the relevant time period and determined that while the play was extremely aggressive, particularly on the river, there were several instances where the player merely called on the river. Thus, the allegation that the player accounts at issue “never called on the river, they either raised or folded” are also without merit. With respect to the allegation of chip dumping, we have determined that chip dumping by at least one of the accounts at issue, did in fact, take place. We have determined that the chip dumping was made to several seemingly unrelated accounts. We are continuing to investigate this issue.
Conclusion
A ‘super-user’ account does not exist in our software. Absolute Poker was created by poker players who value security and fair play. The back-end of the Absolute Poker software prevents the possibility of any such feature. Our game client only receives data regarding an individual’s hand and no other player hole cards are ever visible – by anyone – except in the event of a showdown. Having said that, we will continue this investigation as well as look into any other allegations of wrong-doing. If appropriate, we will freeze funds and reimburse effected players.
Absolute Poker remains a 100% secure place to play. We value all of our players and we will continue to provide our community with a safe, secure and exciting online poker experience.
The Absolute Poker Management

actyper

FYI, The whole truth is actually far worse than what has been released.

Monteroy

And welcome to a near word for word anger based statement every conspiracy nut uses .

After all, if you don't believe the government was involved with 9/11 then you are either "dumb or ignorant."

I have already listened to it, what I heard was a guy who knows that he is in the middle of a mess that was caused by a couple of bad people doing bad things and he realizes that it will take a lot of time, effort and money to help make up for their deeds, and that many will never forgive them.

I am not advocating people play at UB, but I do not care if they do if that is what they want. This scandal certainly should be considered when playing there, but to me online poker is about making money.

Again, you are fully entitled to your beliefs, but how you have expressed them so far is pretty much a textbook example of conspiracy belief thinking. so realistically no matter what the UB guy said you would look at it as proof of your beliefs (like how you used the blackjack stuff to that end).

Again, like the 9/11 guys believe - if the government denies it that only proves they are in on it.

"FYI, The whole truth is actually far worse than what has been released."

Heh, maybe or maybe not. Belief that this is fact does not make it fact, just makes it a bit paranoid, that's all.


An amusing take on conspiracy theories in 3 parts by Penn and Teller. Enjoy!

ReefAquarium

I used to recommend UB to beginners since you could play rake free .01/.02
I no longer recommend them.

I used to recommend Absolute for the bonuses.
I no longer recommend them.

If there isn't a run on these sites ... there should be.

__________________
Not smarter than a grade 5 or Kristy Sea

MickeyHoldem

Source please... because I'm quite sure that this is not the case!!

__________________
-- Michael
Luck is just probability taken personally!

ReefAquarium

Might I suggest you update your review of Absolute

__________________
Not smarter than a grade 5 or Kristy Sea

Graham

Absolutely! I updated my review of UB here:
Ultimate Bet Bonus Code, Ultimate Bet Review

But I will definitely get on that AP review in the next few days. Thanks for the heads up!!!!

m_dolens

i think this thread may benefit a little if some people could get over their notions of absolutism. maybe some should consider a pragmatic fallibilist approach. (and this goes for both sides of the argument imho)

_obv_

I can understand how someone might think of the anti-UB people as consiracy theorists if there was just the UB case. But given that UB and AP have the same ownership group and the same cheating has happened on both sites and that AP lied in their first press release by saying there was no evidence of unfair play I think anything UB says should be taken with a grain of salt since these people have lied in the past and that there are pieces of the press release that have been proven to be wrong.

Maybe it is just a giant coincidence and the ownership group cheated at AP and not at UB but to me if there is any doubt that this is not the case(and you cant argue that there are no flaws in UBs story) you should play on sites that do in fact have a good reputation... there are plenty of sites with a clean record out there.

Graham

Playing poker online is not the same as playing in a casino where you can see what is going on in front of you and have someone constantly ensuring the rules are being enforced (ie. the dealer/pit boss). Since there is nobody watching every game in online poker, sites MUST put measures in place to ensure fair play, and that the rules are being enforced. If they can't do this properly, then they should not exist.

Not only do these situations make the sites involved look bad, they make "online poker" as a whole look bad. Why should we let a few bad apples ruin it for the rest?

Monteroy

I am not suggesting anyone play at UB or Absolute. I don't , though for non moral/reputation based reasons.

Certainly a site's reputation matters, but realistically a small stakes player's money at UB or Absolute is not in any real danger of being cheated, and to imply otherwise is really a stretch.

It is completely reasonable to point to the problems of these sites and let others place their own value on their importance.

Where it starts getting a bit messy is when the conspiracy method of thinking starts getting used, as was done here for instance with the temp freezing of accounts that run hot in blackjack.

It's "points/facts" like these that put a taint on any real facts that actually matter, because it gives the person who uses these "facts" the image of basically a zealot who will use any information to fit their UB/Absolute is evil belief structure. Same thing when a bunch of 3rd hand info from message boards gets re-interpreted. This makes the message's intent less potent ironically.


"I can understand how someone might think of the anti-UB people as consiracy theorists if there was just the UB case."

Actually all I have said so far is that you are using much of the thinking process/methodology of a conspiracy theory believer (ie: mixing random facts together/applying meaning to unrelated facts etc) and this makes your message less effective. It's more of a picket line/slogan yelling way to make a point, but that generally makes noise and not much else.