Ideal starting limit?

gordan_gecco · Jul 20,2004, 10:50 AM

I've been playing mostly NL SNGs on Stars, but I'd like to get into playing some structured ring games as well. What would you recommend as a starting limit? I ask because I just don't think that people will respect raises at a $0.25/$0.50 limit as much as they will at a $1/$2 limit, and that therefore a lot of what I've learned from Sklansky and Jones won't apply.

Thanks.

all_aces · Jul 20,2004, 11:04 AM

Quote:

I just don't think that people will respect raises at a $0.25/$0.50 limit as much as they will at a $1/$2 limit

People say this same thing about $5/$10 to $10/$20. A lot of $10/$20 players can't beat the $5/$10 games because they don't adjust their play to account for the number of chasers.

At $1/$2, my experience is that there is generally little or no respect for people's raises. You start getting into 'respect a raise' territory at around $10/$20. However, this is just my experience, and I've seen people with no regard for raises playing $30/$60 and higher. I guess a lot of it depends on who's raising.

Furthermore, I find that there is more respect in B&M games than online, probably because people don't want to have to physically sit at a table and endure the abuse after executing the world's worst suck-out.

So all you can do is try to find a strategy that works for you as you try to beat the chasers, or spend a lot of time looking around, and maybe you'll find a tight $1/$2 table. I've never seen one, but that doesn't mean they don't exist.

Cheers,
all_aces

ScottyZ · Jul 20,2004, 11:31 AM

This is really going to depend of your bankroll size. However, if bankroll size is not an issue (it may not be for a lot of people starting off in micro-limits), the limits you have to choose from are probably pretty similar in game texture (up to a point).

Most games $0.50-$1.00 and under are going to be pretty similar in texture--- typically, ultra-loose and passive. You'll find the odd $1-$2 game with a lot of "crazies", but when you start hitting limits like $2-$4 and $3-$6, the games, while still often *very* soft, begin to contain significantly more players who know what they're doing.

If bankroll size is not an issue for you, try out a lower limit first and work your way up. Feel free to move up quickly if you find yourself extremely bored because the stakes are too low. It's a very delicate balance between stakes which are too low for you or too high for you. You need to care about the kind of money you are playing for, but not care enough so that it affects your play.

(Again, assuming bankroll size is not an issue... if bankroll size *is* an issue, this determines your upper limit of play obviously.)

As for strategy considerations, you absolutely must adjust your strategy for the type of game you're in. For the micro-limits, this is dramatically so. Forget you ever read Sklansky's HPFAP (to be sure, an excellent book if you're playing a more "standard" game of Holdem). Take a firm "no nonsense" approach as laid out in the Lee Jones and Dave Scharf books. Fully understanding and implementing some form of Dave's excellent low-limit strategy summary, "Bet with the best, good draw to invest, fold all the rest" probably accounts for more than 90% of my own low-limit holdem success.

And if I may humbly offer my own low-limit mantra for your consideration.

"No fancy plays."

This, of course, is just a shorter, and more narrow (or perhaps more focused) version of Dave's low-limit slogan, but I like to concentrate on this more specifically since trying to make fancy plays is by far the biggest leak that remains in my own low-limit holdem game.

Well, this reply has probably wandered so far away from the original question that I should close by returning to it and summarizing.

1. Try out the lowest limit from the choices you are considering to begin with, but if you're overly bored with the stakes, go ahead and move up quickly as long as bankroll and/or comfort playing the higher stakes is not an issue.

2. You will need to make significant strategy adjustments at the micro- and low-limits, but they are not difficult ones to make. If you know your opponents will call you too much, take this into account. If you know your betting and raising will not drive people out, do not bet or raise with the intention of driving people out. (Of course, there *are* other important reasons to bet and raise when you have a good hand, including pre-flop.)

3. No fancy plays.

ScottyZ

Hork42 · Jul 20,2004, 11:40 AM

I would say Lee Jones basic strategies still work at .25/.50 and below.

Yes, a raise does not mean much to a lot of the players there.. You're playing the cards more than the people. Don't try to bluff people out at that level, it won't work. Even at 1/2, it's difficult to manipulate people, because they simply are not thinking.. It helps to know your outs, your odds and make the correct play in any given situation. Don't expect to use much from S&M HEFAP at anything below 2/4 online, and possibly 10/20 at the casino. The exception is the loose table section. But most of that book is geared towards deceptive little tricks to manipulate players who have a clue.

As to where to start, I'd say it depends on your bankroll. If you don't have enough for 1/2, then don't start there... Take advantage of the huge pots (in BB) at the lower limits. You will have the majority of the table seeing the flop at anything below 1/2, and at some sites even higher. Your bankroll will grow if you play a tight-aggressive game. Don't be lured into chasing draws. Always keep your pot-odds in mind... Sometimes it will be correct to chase given the size of the pot....

I'm not the most experienced here, but my online winnings keep me happy enough to keep playing, and all I've played online is low limits, (3/6 and below). This is just one penguin's opinion.

btw - .50/$1 was a good limit for me at UB and Party...

hork.

Hork42 · Jul 20,2004, 11:45 AM

I just read Scotty's post after I wrote mine...

there are two big points that I cannot agree with more..

- You have to care about the game at the limit you play. If you start at .01/.02 and start fooling around, you will get nowhere.
- No fancy plays. (That's where I end up losing money.)

hork.

NurseHoliday · Jul 20,2004, 12:24 PM

I agree with everything the esteemed contributors have said. There isn't a lot of respect for raises at any levels i've played online ($1/$2 and all levels below that). Many callers and chasers and they hit enough to think the strategy is a winning one and they continue doing it.
I think you have to tighten up, bet when you've got the goods and draw as cheaply as possible to the nuts or near nuts when the odds call for it.

This hand sums up the frustration encountered at the lower levels: I'm dealt J 6 of diamonds in mid position and see the flop for $.25 (5 other callers). The flop offers the 10 and 4 of diamonds and a black K. It is checked around.
The turn offers a rag of the other black suit (not the same as the K from the flop). Checked all around. The river brings the Q of diamonds. It's checked to me and I bet $.50. A couple fold, and then I'm raised by LP and it is re-raised by the button. So now I'm convinced that my J is not going to hold up - the King and or Ace of diamonds are probably held by my opponents so after a small time in tank, I muck my flush. The LP player then Re-re-raises the button, who then calls!!! Of course, I fully expect to see one turn over the K and the other the nut flush to the Ace of diamonds. ERRRR! Wrong. Sadly, very wrong.

The LP player flips a J A offsuit for a 10-A straight. And the button turns over 10 Q for 2 pair. Gulp.

And to top it off, the LP proudly proclaims "I love having the nuts!!"

I freaking snapped....damned near took out my Wilson Software CD to use as a clay pigeon.....PULLL!!

I politely indicate that the straight wasn't the nuts and the LP player said "it wasn't?" Another player said no, there was a flush possibility and I said (perhaps unwisely) that I folded a flush. Then LP says "a straight beats a flush, no?". To which I replied YES!! YES YES YES!! And I brought more chips to the table.

I ended up winning about 20 big bets from these mullets (another didn't know what a nut flush was), but it goes to show you - nothing is for sure at these levels.

all_aces · Jul 20,2004, 02:24 PM

Hmmm.... sounds to me like those two might have been colluding.... raising and re-raising to get the best hand to fold...

Regards,
all_aces