Looking for advice on this tournament hand

ol-stone-face · Nov 29,2004, 07:30 AM

Played in my first MTT on Stars yesterday and was generally pleased with the way I played. No, it wasn't the "big one",

just the $2 MTT at 6:30pm.

This situation came up at Level VI (100/200). Up to this point I had been playing very tight. I was able to take advantage when getting decent cards came but continuously saw my stack go down as I folded trash hand after trash hand (I know, just the normal types of hands for everyone).

I just got moved to another table about three hands earlier, so I don't have much of a read on anyone at this point. I am UTG when this comes up; (I am o_s_f)

Table '3535140 108' Seat #8 is the button
Seat 1: chills24-_-7 (15970 in chips)
Seat 2: o_s_f (3250 in chips)
Seat 3: DLeeChurch (2455 in chips)
Seat 4: Uproar2099 (6395 in chips)
Seat 5: Ash888 (4565 in chips)
Seat 6: monj9 (4620 in chips)
Seat 7: 2more (4918 in chips)
Seat 8: tonkatay33 (7073 in chips)
Seat 9: 383Dodge (13106 in chips)
383Dodge: posts small blind 100
chills24-_-7: posts big blind 200
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to o_s_f [Th Ts]

It goes without saying that I really screwed things up, but I would like to know what a sound approach would have been.
At this point we are down to about 620 players from a field of over 2100.
Average stack is about $4800.
The crazy people are mostly gone by now and play has been tightening up a little.

Thanks for any insight you can provide, I would like to hear from others before posting the disaster that this hand became.

Cheers

Pigga · Nov 29,2004, 07:59 AM

hmmmm......im not sure which of the two things i would do here (first 2 that came to mind)

it appears you are utg, i think i'd probably raise to 800(3x BB) but thats about 1/4 of you stack, with only 16 BB's i might consider just pushing or maybe limp-reraising all in (provided someone else raises) and then hope for the best or just take a few hundred in blinds....

from your comments though it doesnt sound like it turned out well, but i want to find out what happens, gl in future tourneys

pkrfce9 · Nov 29,2004, 08:33 AM

You've got a good hand but lousy position. Top it off with not many chips to throw away.

There's not enough money in the pot to go for the steal right now. I guess I want to see the flop and if it is favourable, push my chips then if the pot is worth taking down at that point. What is favourable? I guess either you hit a ten (unlikely) or no overcards are on the board. Maybe even an open-ended straight draw (I'd favour 9-8-7 over k-q-j. a lot!!!)

I don't like the idea of flat calling the blinds here. Chances are someone behind you will sense weakness and raise or the blinds will get to see a flop cheaply and maybe beat you with garbage cards. So maybe you go to 2x or 3x blinds. If someone raises behind you, maybe you can isolate him and push all-in and take him on heads-up. Your odds heads-up are very good. With a 2x raise, someone may sense weakness and try to steal the pot from you. Even if not, it should still knock a number of marginal hands out pre-flop. That is a great opportunity for you.

Don't get discouraged. I've made tons of bone-headed moves in tourneys and continue to do so. Even just getting into the money requires a fair bit of luck in addition to skill. It takes a lot of study and many, many tourneys to be confident you can make it to the money. I'm nowhere near there yet but I hope by participating in this forum in addition to study and practice, I can get better.

I just love tragi-comedies. I can't wait to hear how it ended.

sweetjimmi · Nov 29,2004, 09:25 AM

The following is based on my ABC poker because you know nothing about any of the players. I raise my standard to 3BB 600 total. Folding to a reraise preflop. Post flop play accordingly because it will depend on what happens from there.

Remember when you know nothing about your opponents your opponents probably know nothing (or very little) about you! So they should respect your raise unless they have a big hand.

BBC Z · Nov 29,2004, 09:56 AM

Quote:

Folding to a reraise preflop

I disagree. You just threw 600 of your 3k chips into the pot with a great hand. There are 5 hands (JJ->AA) that have you dominated and 8 hands (22->99) that you have dominated + the overcards hands which are far more likely.

If you fold this hand to a raise, when do you ever play?

To quote afro thunder from ready to rumble boxing, "It's time to dance, it's time to DANCE!"

ol-stone-face · Nov 29,2004, 10:17 AM

Well I did dance.......but it kind of looked like Elaine's dancing on Seinfeld.

Thanks for the replies everyone, I appreciate all of your insights.
Well here is the rest of the hand;

*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to o_s_f [Th Ts]
o_s_f: raises 1000 to 1200
DLeeChurch: raises 1000 to 2200
Uproar2099: folds
Ash888: folds
monj9: folds
2more: folds
tonkatay33: folds
383Dodge: folds
chills24-_-7: folds
o_s_f: raises 1050 to 3250 and is all-in
DLeeChurch: calls 255 and is all-in
*** FLOP *** [Kd 6h Qh]
*** TURN *** [Kd 6h Qh] [4s]
o_s_f said, "nh"
*** RIVER *** [Kd 6h Qh 4s] [4d]
*** SHOW DOWN ***
o_s_f: shows [Th Ts] (two pair, Tens and Fours)
DLeeChurch: shows [Ah Ac] (two pair, Aces and Fours)
DLeeChurch said, "ty"
DLeeChurch collected 5210 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 5210 | Rake 0
Board [Kd 6h Qh 4s 4d]
Seat 1: chills24-_-7 (big blind) folded before Flop
Seat 2: o_s_f showed [Th Ts] and lost with two pair, Tens and Fours
Seat 3: DLeeChurch showed [Ah Ac] and won (5210) with two pair, Aces and Fours
Seat 4: Uproar2099 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 5: Ash888 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 6: monj9 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 7: 2more folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 8: tonkatay33 (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 9: 383Dodge (small blind) folded before Flop

================================================== =

About three times up to this point in the tourney I lead in with 3x the BB only to get about 3 or 4 callers. I don't want that to happen again so I decide to make it substantial and come in for $1000 raise. With TT I want to be heads up or just take the blinds. The player right after me raises me another 1000 right of the bat. Ouch. That was a pretty strong statement, but being totally oblivious to the impending danger push in the rest of my stack.
I was thinking he was an even shorter stack then me so it was reasonable to think he was on two overcards (it's now or never) leaving me with a coin flip.

He turns up AA .... meh!

I'm just wondering if I should have folded in the face of a 1000 reraise. (Like SweetJimmi said). But with every new post (Thanks BBC) I change my mind. If I can't go in with TT when do I go in?

I'm figuring by only raising 1000 I am still leaving myself an out (which I ignored when the time came). That still leaves me with about 10BB and a shot to recoup in a more favourable situation.
Better yet, should I have been testing the waters on this table and just went 3x the BB hoping to see a flop? As I mentioned things tightened up a little and maybe I didn't adjust, especially since I didn't know the players.

I've heard before that if I am going to go all in anyway may as well just do it from the get-go.(which would have ended the same way anyhow but that's not the point).

That hand left me with $795 and I bust out shortly after that. (finish 619)

sweetjimmi · Nov 29,2004, 10:46 AM

I totally disaggree that you are committed to playing 1010 after raising in "this situation". I really think when someone comes over the top in this type of "situation" you are most likely dominated and at best a coin flip. I don't think that someone will risk a reraise "IN THIS SITUATION" with an under pair. If you bet 600 and fold you still have plenty of life left. I have changed my "new black" to 6BB as per Dave S and AA (and I really think it makes a HUGE difference thx guys). Until I hit that point I see no reason to push marginal hands further than necessary. If you want your stack in the middle with 1010 in "THIS SITUATION" I think you should push first and hope for the best. I don't think you should be calling your stack off with 1010 in "THIS SITUATION".

Not sure there is problem being called by 3-5 with 1010 when your the raiser. If your flat called the the flop will decide the rest of the play regardless of who many see the flop again in this situation. Raising to 1000 did make you pot committed and you did have to call at that point but again I think that 600 would have achieve the results your looking for. Early in the tourney is no way to judge what's going to happen in the mid-late stages of a tourney especially when moved to a new table.

I think the underlying fact that make my decisions in this "SITUATION" is that your new to the table and you stack size is at the point where your cards will make most of your decisions.

pkrfce9 · Nov 29,2004, 11:31 AM

I like SJ's reasoning.

I guess this is a case of "don't raise when you'd hate to be re-raised"?

I dunno. Heads-up with a very good hand. I like the situation but I don't like the outcome.

I can see the argument to go 2xBB and let go of the hand if someone comes over top of you. Especially in the case where there are many players behind the re-raiser. Either he has a very good hand or balls of iron. Since you hadn't been at the table long, it's a good idea to be cautious.

Did that raise tie you to the hand? I guess that is the question. And maybe that was the mistake if you felt you couldn't let it go.

ol-stone-face · Nov 29,2004, 11:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pkrfce9

Did that raise tie you to the hand? I guess that is the question. And maybe that was the mistake if you felt you couldn't let it go.

Well my intention was to not be tied to the hand but when push came to shove I couldn't let it go either. So that was pretty indecisive and poor judgement. I let the situation at the last table influence my actions against a bunch of new players I did not know and made a move from a really bad position.

Monteroy · Nov 29,2004, 11:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sweetjimmi

I totally disaggree that you are committed to playing 1010 after raising in "this situation". I really think when someone comes over the top in this type of "situation" you are most likely dominated and at best a coin flip. I don't think that someone will risk a reraise "IN THIS SITUATION" with an under pair.

People will do that reraise with low to mid pairs all the time even in higher level tournaments. In a pokerstars 2 dollar one they could have any pair any ace or at times any two face cards, so I think its a stretch to assume only a KK or AA would make this play in that tournament.

10 10 acting first is kind of a nightmare hand with your chips. You have an ok amount but certainly not a ton. If you had less you could play it more aggressively (and accept that you are doomed if one of the 4 bad hands is out there). With a lot more chips you can raise and pass on a huge reraise easier. Your chip count kind of put you between these two easier scenarios.

I don't think it is the best position/hand to risk everything. Kind of hard to fold it so in this specific case with your chips I might just limp in and consider the hand to be hope for a 10 or possibly undercards on the flop (though it would depend how betting went pre flop on the latter).

If someone reraises you small , like 400ish chips you can call and see. If they reraise you large say 1000-2000 you can pass and look for a better opportunity.

Good luck in other tournaments.

wader · Nov 29,2004, 11:52 AM

I want to see the flop with this hand. I limp in early position because I know that I can't take a re-raise. And to me an UTG limp lots of time means strength and a trap. I also have no problem throwing this hand away in this position.
Wader

BBC Z · Nov 29,2004, 12:16 PM

Quote:

I guess this is a case of "don't raise when you'd hate to be re-raised"?

I believe that statement applys more to limit play than NL because pot odds determine if a play is correct or not. You'd hate to be re-raised when you'd have to call the raise even though you may not have the odds to do so.

Quote:

I don't think it is the best position/hand to risk everything. Kind of hard to fold it so in this specific case with your chips I might just limp in and consider the hand to be hope for a 10 or possibly undercards on the flop (though it would depend how betting went pre flop on the latter).

The problem with this logic is that you'd be hard pressed to find a flop where there were no overcards, so you have no idea where you stand in the hand. If the flop is rags, then the other player will either fold when he's behind or call you down when he's ahead. Not a good situation.

You are going to need to win coin tosses to win tournaments. Better to get them out of the way when it's early and your time investment is low than to burn 2 hours grinding out a small stack and then bubbling out.

pkrfce9 · Nov 30,2004, 07:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BBC Z

I believe that statement applys more to limit play than NL because pot odds determine if a play is correct or not. You'd hate to be re-raised when you'd have to call the raise even though you may not have the odds to do so.

I've always felt this applied more to NL since the re-raise can be for a huge amount rather than just a standard unit. In NL you have to be supremely confident you have the best hand in this case (odds are not applicable), whereas in limit, you can still have odds to draw out.

I'll throw this out to the group. Let me know if I'm off base.

As for people's comments regarding calling a raise with TT, I tend to agree that at some point you have to win the coin tosses. I like the idea of doing this earlier rather than later to avoid spending a lot of time and not even making it to the money. Great point! I think this is a good opportunity to get the chips into the centre with only a very few hands that are better. That may not be the safest strategy but it is likely the most pragmatic. If you want to win, you have to take some chances. Sometimes you get caught.

I only say this since he made a sizeable raise and got re-raised. I don't think he could afford to throw these chips away on the chance someone could be bluffing or playing worse cards. I'm trying to get my head around if the better strategy would have been to limp or go in with a small raise that you could walk away from. I think the biggest problem here was being out of position.