WTF do you do here?

Big E · Feb 17,2007, 01:55 PM

Texas Hold'em $0.25-$0.25 NL (Real Money), #1,890,702,565
Table Athen, 17 Feb 2007 2:47 PM ET

Seat 0: superrodin ($31.65 in chips)
Seat 1: PokerDan58 ($22.65 in chips)
Seat 2: 20Make ($32.40 in chips)
Seat 3: hapeky ($24.25 in chips)
Seat 4: tuana2 ($17 in chips)
Seat 5: LuckyRiver5 ($22.55 in chips) (on the button)
Seat 6: game2meatu ($24.50 in chips)
Seat 7: Mr._JB ($40.35 in chips)
Seat 8: Donk.E ($21.60 in chips)
Seat 9: nelisilma44 ($31.90 in chips)
*** Blind Bet Round *** :
game2meatu : Post Blind ($0.15)
Mr._JB : Post Blind ($0.25)
Dealt to Donk.E: Jh
Dealt to Donk.E: Jd
*** Pre-Flop *** :
Donk.E : Bet ($1.50)
nelisilma44 : Fold
superrodin : Fold
PokerDan58 : Fold
20Make : Call ($1.50)
hapeky : Fold
tuana2 : Fold
LuckyRiver5 : Fold
game2meatu : Fold
Mr._JB : Fold
*** Flop *** : 9s 3c 8h
Donk.E : Bet ($2)
20Make : Call ($2)
*** Turn *** : [ 9s 3c 8h ] 6s
Donk.E : Bet ($5)
20Make : Call ($5)
*** River *** : [ 9s 3c 8h 6s ] Kd
Donk.E : Bet ($5)
20Make : Fold

zachjackdad · Feb 17,2007, 02:47 PM

He either hit a set or has TJ. I check call the river. If you check he may bet trying to represent AK and you make more money. If you bet and he raises, you have to fold. If you check and he checks, he probably was not going to call a river bet anyway. If you check and he bets, call and you run into a set, you lost minimum. What did you do?

JohnnieH · Feb 17,2007, 03:11 PM

Jack-10 is really possible, as is A3 or A8 of spades. Alot of European players will call down with mid or bottom pair, and the turn might have given him a flush draw.

I check the river, and call his bet if he underbets his straight.

Also, I might have bet more on the flop, but then again, he looks like he wanted to call you all the way down.

Tough one.

cadillac · Feb 17,2007, 03:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Big E

Texas Hold'em $0.25-$0.25 NL (Real Money), #1,890,702,565
Table Athen, 17 Feb 2007 2:47 PM ET

Seat 0: superrodin ($31.65 in chips)
Seat 1: PokerDan58 ($22.65 in chips)
Seat 2: 20Make ($32.40 in chips)
Seat 3: hapeky ($24.25 in chips)
Seat 4: tuana2 ($17 in chips)
Seat 5: LuckyRiver5 ($22.55 in chips) (on the button)
Seat 6: game2meatu ($24.50 in chips)
Seat 7: Mr._JB ($40.35 in chips)
Seat 8: Donk.E ($21.60 in chips)
Seat 9: nelisilma44 ($31.90 in chips)
*** Blind Bet Round *** :
game2meatu : Post Blind ($0.15)
Mr._JB : Post Blind ($0.25)
Dealt to Donk.E: Jh
Dealt to Donk.E: Jd
*** Pre-Flop *** :
Donk.E : Bet ($1.50)
nelisilma44 : Fold
superrodin : Fold
PokerDan58 : Fold
20Make : Call ($1.50)
hapeky : Fold
tuana2 : Fold
LuckyRiver5 : Fold
game2meatu : Fold
Mr._JB : Fold
*** Flop *** : 9s 3c 8h
Donk.E : Bet ($2)
20Make : Call ($2)
*** Turn *** : [ 9s 3c 8h ] 6s
Donk.E : Bet ($5)
20Make : Call ($5)
*** River *** : [ 9s 3c 8h 6s ] Kd

This is definitely a reverse implied odds situation. You haven't known where you are for the entire hand and are probably behind.

You can't really be worried about the K on the river here. Even AK is very unlikely with villain being so passive pre-flop.

At this point I make a blocking bet on the river and hope to get a showdown as cheaply as possible.

You probably should have been controlling the pot on the turn.

Kinda sucks being out of position doesn't it!

pkrfce9 · Feb 17,2007, 08:19 PM

power fold it before he has a chance to outplay you on the river!

no reads? nl is all about reads. how can we advise you without reads?

i would have played it differently since you're out of position with a tricky hand...

... but given the situation, the K did not complete any draws. if you read him as chasing a draw, check and give him a chance to bluff you. if you read him for slowplaying a monster, then check and fold. if you read him for overplaying top pair or TT, he very well could call a reasonable bet. if you read him for QQ or AA, do you think you can get him to fold? if so, bet enough to take it down but i doubt he folds here.

any reasonable bet you make on the river will practically compel you to call any raise.

given your big pre-flop raise OOP, i'd put you on 99-JJ or just a donk making a bad play. if i know i had that beat, i'd put a lot of pressure on you at the river, even though 99 is huge here...

SirWatts · Feb 17,2007, 10:07 PM

check/call absent any read. There are lots of missed draws that can bluff when checked to here.

Big E · Feb 19,2007, 09:08 AM

Quote:

Kinda sucks being out of position doesn't it!

does it ever!

Quote:

no reads? nl is all about reads. how can we advise you without reads?

i would have played it differently since you're out of position with a tricky hand...

given your big pre-flop raise OOP, i'd put you on 99-JJ or just a donk making a bad play.

LOL, I think you can easily narrow that down to the later.....just a donk making a bad play? Seriously tho, can you explain how you'd approach this hand? JJ IMHO is a tricky hand?

Big E · Feb 19,2007, 09:18 AM

Quote:

At this point I make a blocking bet on the river and hope to get a showdown as cheaply as possible.

This was my thinking. I appreciate all the responses, they have really got me thinking about how to approach a hand like this in the future...and honestly there are good arguments for betting and for checking. Here is the river. I made the bet for one reason.....I did not want to make a decision to call if I check...sure I'd easily call a few bucks but what if he throws out $10 or more, or pushes all-in? If I bet out and he comes over the top I feel I have an easier decision. If I check and he pushes me off the pot I won't feel so good. So I wanted to put the decision to him. I had him on a range of hands to start but when he called the $5 on the turn I was lost and a little worried about him possibly trapping with a set. So how much to bet? I don't want to throw a tiny bet out there I think that just shows weakness and opens the door for him to push me off this pot. I decided to just repeat my turn bet...not sure if that was wise but my thinking is it may look like I want to get called but not look weak. I certainly don't want to overbet or push here as I only get called by a better hand. I threw $5 out there hoping he either folds or calls. If he comes over the top then I think I can easily call or fold depending on the amount. Thankfully this time it worked out in my favour.

*** River *** : [ 9s 3c 8h 6s ] Kd
Donk.E : Bet ($5)
20Make : Fold

cadillac · Feb 19,2007, 09:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Big E

*** River *** : [ 9s 3c 8h 6s ] Kd
Donk.E : Bet ($5)
20Make : Fold

What do you think he had now?

QQ
A9?

Big E · Feb 19,2007, 12:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cadillac

What do you think he had now?

QQ
A9?

Hard to say, he could have also been open ended for all I know? A9 is certainly possible I guess but I wouldn't call $1.50 pre-flop with it? Perhaps QQ, JJ (although I have 2 as well?), but I can't see him folding those when the K pops rather I see him re-raising me? TT is a good possibility, maybe A9s, TJs (although calling $1.50 pre-flop with this I think is dumb unless there are more hands in the pot, more likely something like 77? If I had to guess I'd say something like TT or 77 if he likes chasing (which he seemed to do). He's obviously got me on an over pair or overcards so maybe with something like TT or 77 he was hanging in to see if he could out draw me?

After this hand I noticed this guy called down a lot of hands and tended to fold to a decent river bet but come over top of a weak bet (he'd never show). He didn't seem to bet on the early streets, he'd call then fold/raise the river? He really came after me as well. If I was in a hand he'd stay in and then make huge bets/raises on the river. I never got a chance to take more from him but I also didn't give him his money back

JohnnieH · Feb 19,2007, 12:29 PM

Sounds like you found a nice fish tank to swim in!

Big E · Feb 19,2007, 12:35 PM

Yeah, it's been good so far....not sure if I'm swimming more likely thrashing around wildly but hey so far so good! I find the Poker Room skins pretty good (profit wise, hate the software). This one is Tower Poker. $100 sign-up bonus and you only have to clear 750 hands....in 30 days mind you but it's easy even at these levels.....just wish they had rakeback.

pkrfce9 · Feb 19,2007, 05:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Big E

Seriously tho, can you explain how you'd approach this hand? JJ IMHO is a tricky hand?

i'm still trying to figure out the best way to play JJ... it is definitely a hand you can loose a lot of money on since you can be behind a bigger pair (maybe 1 time in 7) and the 'any Ace' or '2 big cards' players can catch you with (maybe 1 time in 3 or 4). your play really must depend on who you are up against.

the conservative way is play like a small pair and don't get too committed until you hit your set. this is how someone like largay would play it - either doubling up or letting it go if you don't hit and someone else shows aggression.

the other way is be very aggressive until you are sure you are behind. high variance. if you get a safe flop, put out a big bet and hopefully you'll know if you are behind right away before you get too much more into the pot.

g2 · Feb 20,2007, 03:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Big E

A9 is certainly possible I guess but I wouldn't call $1.50 pre-flop with it?

A little 2 cents on this statement. Whether you would call $1.50 preflop with that hand has absolutely nothing to do with what the villain could be holding... it's never good to ask 'would I have done this?'... ask 'would the villain do this?'. Hence NL is all about reads.

/g2

Big E · Feb 21,2007, 08:50 AM

I totally agree Greg...that comment was outside my thoughts on the hand during play..just my opinion afterwards is all

but thanks and good point!