KK live 5/10 Brantford.

ReefAquarium · Nov 25,2007, 09:49 AM

10 handed 5/10 Limit at Brantford.

My Table position is excellent. I have just moved into position on the two calling stations. Between me and the calling stations is a solid player, Jasmine, a beautiful young Asian girl. I've been caught bluffing with a busted straight draw in the last half hour. I'm stuck about $200 and the table seems to neither fear nor respect me (this is a good thing). I've had been playing sensible cards preflop or the past 2 hours but I've decided to loosen up and play a lot more cards since I have great position on the calling stations.

Preflop:

The two calling stations limp in preflop under the gun. I've never seen either of them check raise preflop. The hand range I put them on is ... top 90% two cards.

Jasmine raises, I watch her face. She stares straight ahead with a hungry lioness expression... She really likes her hand.

I peek down and see KK.

What do you do? (call or raise) Pot = 5 small bets.

I raise.

Folded around to the calling stations.

Calling station 1 calls commenting, "What have I got myself into?"

Calling station 2 calls commenting, "I think he has a hand"

Jasmine 3 bets with zero hesitation.

Humm...

What do you do? Re-Re-raise or call. Pot=14 small bets.

Do I call here to get overcalls from the calling stations and since I may be behind or do I bet for value?

I 4 bet (Cap) since I've decided if they call 2 bets once they will call 2 bets again from the read at the table.

Everyone calls. Pot = 21 small bets

Flop comes QJ2 of three different suits.

Check, check, Jasmine raises. (pot=22 small bets)

What do you do? (fold, call or raise)

SirWatts · Nov 25,2007, 11:29 AM

That's an awful flop but I think you still have to raise.

moose · Nov 25,2007, 11:49 AM

Cap preflop.

Raise postflop. If I am behind, it costs me a small bet to find out. If I am ahead, at most it costs me one small bet if both calling stations fold and Jasmine calls.

The_Awesome · Nov 25,2007, 12:43 PM

I raise that every chance I get until either someone wins the pot or and A shows up.

Preflop the only hand that beats you is AA. She loves her hand preflop. If you want to put her on that one hand go ahead... but that would be hard.

When you get a big pair you just keep betting and weeding down the feild. You have an over pair on the flop.... keep betting it all the way. Reraising preflop you might have pushed a caller off (or both) as now they are calling 2 very strong hands for $4 more instead of $2 more and only one very strong hand (not so in this case I guess as both called).

If you can't weed the field before the river step back a bit. The more people in the worse your odds that your Ks stand up. Weed everyone you can as early as you can.

It's hard to tell if she improved on the flop or not since she was so confident before.

I had KK 2:00am Friday night and raised it up with 3 callers. Flop comes A crap crap so I raised to test and got call, call reraise. I had to throw it down for a cost of $6. But if I have a big pair and no overs fall I am going to try to weed out the field by continually betting. If you get heads up and have a bad feeling you might then just call her raises instead of getting too much involved.

BBC Z · Nov 25,2007, 01:58 PM

Quote:

I raise that every chance I get until either someone wins the pot or and A shows up.

If she raises the turn AGAIN (after i assume betting every chance before this), then I call her down.

Also, Awesome, I think you need to re-think about 'WHY' you are making bets and raises.

The_Awesome · Nov 25,2007, 02:21 PM

Do tell. I am not very experienced with limit and could always use advice.

I like to be against 1-2 people after the turn bet when I am sitting with a big pocket pair. If I know that she will likely follow me all the way I will bet every chance until and including the first bet after the turn. That is the first place I'd slow down but only if either:
i) She was still reraising.
ii) There were still more then 2 other people (including her) hanging around.

I don't bet to weed people out on many hands but a big pocket I want to be against only a couple people at the end.

SirWatts · Nov 25,2007, 06:39 PM

I should prob explain, the raise is to try to get out the call stations or at least make them pay to chase their longshot hands and protect our hand the times it is best, even though we there's a pretty good chance we are beat. The pot is huge and you have to fight for it. After any more aggression from her you should prboably go into calldown mode.

ReefAquarium · Nov 26,2007, 03:08 AM

Thanks for the replies,

If you raise the flop and she 3 bets do you fold or go into call down mode?

I was really torn about this hand ....
With no reads I always raise when there is a bet on my right and there are callers behind on the flop with any type of hand that I will be playing ...

Especially with a huge pot like this...

But I can't for the life of me think of a hand that I can beat that a solid player would have here...

Solid players just don't 3 bet with smaller pairs and AK, AJs, AQs or TT doesn't seem possible.

I mean what can she have that's a 3 bet preflop hand

AA 6 ways
KK 1 way
QQ 3 ways
JJ 3 ways

I really don't think she's on AK or AQ...

AKs 2 ways
AKo 6 ways
AQs 4 ways
AQo 12 ways.

So I convinced myself I'm playing my KK for set value ... (cringe) and I just called. I'm convinced that is is an awful blunder under most circumstances but I was sure I was way, way, behind ...

The calling stations both folded. (Lucky me)

Turn was an offsuit T

Board is QJ2(T) and I pick up a gutshot.
Jasmine Bets (pot=12 big bets)
Do you fold, call or raise?

I called, river is a 6.
Board is JT2 T 6.

Jasmine bets.
Pot is 15 big bets.
Do you fold, call or raise?

SirWatts · Nov 26,2007, 03:33 AM

Just call down, pot is too big to fold and a fancy free showdown raise on the turn is too likely to backfire. The river is especially gross because you really beat absolutely nothing now, but 15:1 is a pretty good price to hope she's lost her mind or something.

The_Awesome · Nov 26,2007, 08:36 AM

Call it down. It's worth paying her here just to see what she has. There's also still a small chance she has A Q suited so with the pot odds I'd call on the river. I certainly wouldn't be raising any more.

BBC Z · Nov 26,2007, 09:24 AM

Quote:

Do tell. I am not very experienced with limit and could always use advice.

You post focuses on attempting to reduce the field. Thats something you usually can't do in limit on a high flop.

The_Awesome · Nov 26,2007, 09:53 AM

I agree that one bet isn't going to push the calling stations off here... but if they know it's going to cap from here on out for each additional card that may be a different story. They might throw a gut shot or a single pair away. As it turns out in this case they did fold.

So preflop I'll bet every time to try to reduce the field. After the flop I will continue the same to try to drop another player or even two.

Super System II... page 232.... Limit Hold'em section written by Jennifer Harman... Playing High Pocket Pairs... very first line says to reduce the field

. Sure the main point is preflop but with that flop I'd follow it up.

BBC Z · Nov 26,2007, 10:02 AM

Quote:

Super System II... page 232.... Limit Hold'em section written by Jennifer Harman... Playing High Pocket Pairs... very first line says to reduce the field . Sure the main point is preflop but with that flop I'd follow it up.

if you want to book battle, read SSHE, the part about how people overplay pocket pairs and land up giving away pot odds because they grow the pot too much.

The_Awesome · Nov 26,2007, 10:11 AM

Thank you for the reference, I will read it. It's always good to have multiple opinions and strategies to work with

. I will be most interested in exactly what point is over played... before or after the turn card hitting the table.

Again when things get expensive on the turn I might slow down. But if I can get the callers to think it's going to cap from here on in and get them to fold after the flop I think that's a fair strategy. I can make them think it's going to cost them a lot more down road while only investing a little now. I'd certainly remember where the brake is though

.

I'm actually going to go get that book at lunch. You can never learn enough

.

ReefAquarium · Nov 28,2007, 04:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ReefAquarium

Thanks for the replies,

If you raise the flop and she 3 bets do you fold or go into call down mode?

I was really torn about this hand ....
With no reads I always raise when there is a bet on my right and there are callers behind on the flop with any type of hand that I will be playing ...

Especially with a huge pot like this...

But I can't for the life of me think of a hand that I can beat that a solid player would have here...

Solid players just don't 3 bet with smaller pairs and AK, AJs, AQs or TT doesn't seem possible.

I mean what can she have that's a 3 bet preflop hand

AA 6 ways
KK 1 way
QQ 3 ways
JJ 3 ways

I really don't think she's on AK or AQ...

AKs 2 ways
AKo 6 ways
AQs 4 ways
AQo 12 ways.

So I convinced myself I'm playing my KK for set value ... (cringe) and I just called. I'm convinced that is is an awful blunder under most circumstances but I was sure I was way, way, behind ...

The calling stations both folded. (Lucky me)

Turn was an offsuit T

Board is QJ2(T) and I pick up a gutshot.
Jasmine Bets (pot=12 big bets)
Do you fold, call or raise?

I called, river is a 6.
Board is JT2 T 6.

Jasmine bets.
Pot is 15 big bets.
Do you fold, call or raise?

Everything was screaming, "I'm beat" I mean what can she have that I can beat?? KK or AQs is unlikely here...

I made a payoff/crying call and was shown QQ for a set...

I'd like to progress to the point where I can trust my reads and fold in situations like this...
And they come up quite often that I'm still calling in big pots where I pretty much *Know* I'm beat but I'm not sharp enough to make the laydowns here.