What to do?

betrthanphil

Just wanted to see some opinions from other people on the forum. What you think, wouldve you have done anything different.

Limit - Level XI (150/300) - 2010/11/04 18:23:25 ET
Table '338011254 21' 9-max Seat #3 is the button
Seat 1: Dantes_11 (10456 in chips)
Seat 2: term_ (4015 in chips)
Seat 3: BetrThanPhil (8620 in chips)
Seat 4: Marmalyser (12040 in chips)
Seat 5: monsunlando (14960 in chips)
Seat 6: AngelinaWins (9556 in chips)
Seat 7: sizzlinbetta (15732 in chips)
Seat 8: achi11es24 (15404 in chips)
Seat 9: franktsoi (11687 in chips)
Dantes_11: posts the ante 40
term_: posts the ante 40
BetrThanPhil: posts the ante 40
Marmalyser: posts the ante 40
monsunlando: posts the ante 40
AngelinaWins: posts the ante 40
sizzlinbetta: posts the ante 40
achi11es24: posts the ante 40
franktsoi: posts the ante 40
Marmalyser: posts small blind 150
monsunlando: posts big blind 300
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to BetrThanPhil [Js Tc]
AngelinaWins: raises 378 to 678
sizzlinbetta: folds
achi11es24: folds
franktsoi: calls 678
Dantes_11: folds
term_: folds
BetrThanPhil: calls 678
Marmalyser: folds
monsunlando: calls 378
*** FLOP *** [3d 2h Jh]
monsunlando: checks
AngelinaWins: bets 985
franktsoi: folds
BetrThanPhil: calls 985
monsunlando: raises 1415 to 2400
AngelinaWins: folds
BetrThanPhil: ?

Unknown

just that i would fold now...

compuease

Gotta ask yourself, why did I call in the 1st place... You had decent odds and position, right? Now what do I need to continue past the flow, a huge draw or great flop right? That would be 3 jacks, three tens or both a J and a 10, perhaps Q,K or 8,9 right? Top pair, middle kicker is not a huge flop especially against a bettor and reraiser.... Let it go, pick a better spot.
Just noticed you weren't in position. Even worse..

betrthanphil

darbday wrote: »

just that i would fold now...

Looking for more then that, what ranges do you put him on and such.

betrthanphil

I thought I was beating the original better with his 30% of the pot bet that is why i called originally, I understand I need to fold. I did fold obviously I just wanted to see if anyone felt differently and would your opinion change if you had AJ? KJ?

Unknown

betrthanphil wrote: »

Looking for more then that, what ranges do you put him on and such.

i do see now that there is a flush draw out there that he's likely re raising but i generally put the 2nd raising on better than tptk. its just that this pot is looking to get out of hand on the next street and we're drawing to like 5 cards to stay in. plus we don't know what the initial raiser will do here....

i play aj jk the same here. way better spot for your sb style i think

betrthanphil

darbday wrote: »

i do see now that there is a flush draw out there that he's likely re raising but i generally put the 2nd raising on better than tptk. its just that this pot is looking to get out of hand on the next street and we're drawing to like 5 cards to stay in. plus we don't know what the initial raiser will do here....

i play aj jk the same here. way better spot for your sb style i think

Original raiser already folded. And if i were to call, id wouldnt fold on turn unless heart came prob. I was thinking he could have a hand like 56h. Which would mean im slightly ahead. But if thats best case scenerio I gotta fold. Plus I figure he would push not raise so small. I personally think he had 33 or 22

Unknown

betrthanphil wrote: »

I personally think he had 33 or 22

yes very much so. if you call here its likely your facing a larger turn bet that whether hes semi bluffing or not would be hard to call. still think there's not enough plus side to call. maybe you have some missing table image info though

reibs

Ya I think I tend to agree, he's got you crushed here way too often to call. Sure there can be a few draw combos that you are a flip with, but if that's the best you can hope for, then fold and find a better spot with >20 bigs remaining.

What hands can we possibly think we are beating that called pre, then check raised a board like that? Maaaaaaybe J9/J8 hands, but thats a stretch imo.

Can I ask what your thought process was for calling preflop though? I would probably be calling a bit tighter than that, and maybe I need to open my range a bit at these times?

And my opinion might change if I had AJ/KJ if I thought the raiser has been getting outta line. If he has QJ/KJ and knew the OR was going to CB 100% of time, then a check raise would be okay I think from him. Though it would still be a tough spot and would be tough to call stack off on later streets if he continues to barrel.

JtotheLew

I think he has AJ here judging from how it played..probably fold as much as it sucks cause there is money in the middle and you have top pair. These are the spots where against your better judgement you convince yourself he's on a flush draw and shovel/lose..

Good fold

betrthanphil

Yeah the call pre was a little loose, but he had been raising a lot and it was only a min raise. Prob shouldve still folded because there was another caller in the hand but i wanted to try to flop a big hand, instead it cost me another 1000. O well just wanted to hear exactly what you all said to knock some sense into me.

HammerDad

I fold pre. While it looks like we are in position we have a marginal hand with multiple villains. Yeah, we can hit huge draws here, that is what you are playing to hit, your draws or 2 pair and trip hands. 1 pair/meh kicker is virtually never good here against villains range which I would include:

Hand vs odds to win

22 - 1.62%
33 - 1.62%
JJ - 0%
KJ - ~11-12%
AJ - ~11-12%
QJ - ~11-12%


So there are about ~52 combinations of hands that we are crushed by.

Edit - forgot to add hands which may have been slow played (although unlikely) where we are only about 18-20% against.

AA
KK
QQ

I put JJ in there even though there is only 1 combo he can have of JJ and it is unlikely he would play it that fast unless villain is paranoid of getting out drawn.

Hands in villains range where we are ahead but hating life because number of draws they may have and there aren't that many safe turns for your hand are:

45hh - 45% to win
A3hh - 47.5%
Axhh - 55-45%
KQhh - 45%

I grudgingly fold knowing I made a mistake and find a better spot. We are pretty flipping or crushed.

djgolfcan

You are on the button with an M just above 10. I don't hate the pre-flop call but you have to think ahead to what you are going to do later on. J-T is going to, more often than not, lead to some type of straight draw. Are you willing to call or raise, possibly risk you tourney life on a straight draw ? If the answer is no, fold pre flop.

Hitting two pair or a set is the best case scenario. When you don't hit and only the Jack comes, you don't have a very good kicker.

The flop bet from the initial raiser is 1/3 the pot and looks very much like a flush draw trying to see a cheap turn / river. You call and now you have invested 20% of your stack on top pair, mid kicker with one player still to act.

As played, you have to fold to the raise but you have to ask yourself if J-Tos was worth those $1600 chips you stuck in the middle.

Conserving chips in a tourney is more important than speculating for a big score, especially when your M is under 15.

betrthanphil

djgolfcan wrote: »

You are on the button with an M just above 10. I don't hate the pre-flop call but you have to think ahead to what you are going to do later on. J-T is going to, more often than not, lead to some type of straight draw. Are you willing to call or raise, possibly risk you tourney life on a straight draw ? If the answer is no, fold pre flop.

Hitting two pair or a set is the best case scenario. When you don't hit and only the Jack comes, you don't have a very good kicker.

The flop bet from the initial raiser is 1/3 the pot and looks very much like a flush draw trying to see a cheap turn / river. You call and now you have invested 20% of your stack on top pair, mid kicker with one player still to act.

As played, you have to fold to the raise but you have to ask yourself if J-Tos was worth those $1600 chips you stuck in the middle.

Conserving chips in a tourney is more important than speculating for a big score, especially when your M is under 15.

Yes I know, I had been tilting a little to be honest, got up to like 12k then took bad beat, then got back up to 12k and took another sick set up. However in no way did the original raiser have a flush draw, there is no way he would fold to such a small reraise, I think I was beating him for sure. But I know there is no hand I want to be up against from the reraiser because Im like 90% I was way behind, or he wouldve just shoved.