Was I wrong to slowplay this hand? 2 pair vs. same, $3 SNG.
Site: PKR.com
Game: $3.00 + .30, 10-person SNG
Conditions: Villains both playing loose-aggressive.
Table #6476751 - STT #4452861
Starting Hand #323283759
Last Hand #323283260
Game Type: HOLD'EM
Limit Type: NO LIMIT
Table Type: TOURNAMENT
Money Type: TOURNAMENT CHIPS
Blinds are now $50/$100
Button is at seat 1
Seat 1: platty - $1,190
Seat 2: CHiLLEN - $1,700
Seat 3: RattlinBones - $1,140
Seat 4: BurtBrockfield - $860
Seat 5: Krisxiii - $7,520
Seat 9: idosh69 - $2,590
Moving Button to seat 2
RattlinBones posts small blind ($50)
BurtBrockfield posts big blind ($100)
Shuffling Deck
Dealing Cards
Dealing [Qh Jh] to RattlinBones
Krisxiii folds
idosh69 folds
platty calls $100
CHiLLEN folds
RattlinBones calls $100
BurtBrockfield checks
Dealing Flop [Js 7h Qd]
RattlinBones checks
BurtBrockfield checks
platty checks
Dealing Turn [As]
RattlinBones checks
BurtBrockfield checks
platty checks
Dealing River [2s]
RattlinBones checks
BurtBrockfield bets $100
platty raises to $200
RattlinBones raises to $1,040 (all-in)
BurtBrockfield folds
platty calls $1,040
platty shows [Ad 7c]
RattlinBones shows [Qh Jh]
RattlinBones has Two Pairs: Queens, Jacks
platty has Two Pairs: Aces, 7s
platty wins $2,480 with: Two Pairs: Aces, 7s
Seat 1: platty - $2,530
Seat 2: CHiLLEN - $1,700
Seat 3: RattlinBones - $0
Seat 4: BurtBrockfield - $660
Seat 5: Krisxiii - $7,520
Seat 9: idosh69 - $2,590
End Of Hand #323283759
I've learned the dangers of overusing the slowplay, but I thought this hand warranted it considering the play of my opponents in what had thus far been an extemely wild SNG. I knew I could do well at this game if I tightened up, but I thought calling with this hand was the right move, and I'd just ditch it if I didn't hit the flop hard.
I couldn't have put either opponent on AJ or AQ. They may have been loose, but they were aggressive enough to at least put forth small raises on top hands. I guess maybe I should have thought twice about Q7 or J7, but really, what are the chances? And with the blinds being as high as they were, I didn't have enough chips to put out feeler bets (especially considering also my opponents' stack sizes.)
I was pretty much 100% sure that betting the flop would result in my opponents folding, netting only a 300 chip pot. Knowing their aggressive tendencies, I knew I could incite a bet, and get all my chips in with what I presumed was the best hand. When the ace came on the turn, I was actually jumping for joy! I thought it would be what got me action and would allow me to bust one of these guys. When a third spade came on the river, I was a little worried, but didn't think I could factor it into my decision.
So did I overvalue my two pair, or was I just extremely unlucky? Was a kind of crushing defeat, as I felt that I'd really been sharpening up my play lately.
Game: $3.00 + .30, 10-person SNG
Conditions: Villains both playing loose-aggressive.
Table #6476751 - STT #4452861
Starting Hand #323283759
Last Hand #323283260
Game Type: HOLD'EM
Limit Type: NO LIMIT
Table Type: TOURNAMENT
Money Type: TOURNAMENT CHIPS
Blinds are now $50/$100
Button is at seat 1
Seat 1: platty - $1,190
Seat 2: CHiLLEN - $1,700
Seat 3: RattlinBones - $1,140
Seat 4: BurtBrockfield - $860
Seat 5: Krisxiii - $7,520
Seat 9: idosh69 - $2,590
Moving Button to seat 2
RattlinBones posts small blind ($50)
BurtBrockfield posts big blind ($100)
Shuffling Deck
Dealing Cards
Dealing [Qh Jh] to RattlinBones
Krisxiii folds
idosh69 folds
platty calls $100
CHiLLEN folds
RattlinBones calls $100
BurtBrockfield checks
Dealing Flop [Js 7h Qd]
RattlinBones checks
BurtBrockfield checks
platty checks
Dealing Turn [As]
RattlinBones checks
BurtBrockfield checks
platty checks
Dealing River [2s]
RattlinBones checks
BurtBrockfield bets $100
platty raises to $200
RattlinBones raises to $1,040 (all-in)
BurtBrockfield folds
platty calls $1,040
platty shows [Ad 7c]
RattlinBones shows [Qh Jh]
RattlinBones has Two Pairs: Queens, Jacks
platty has Two Pairs: Aces, 7s
platty wins $2,480 with: Two Pairs: Aces, 7s
Seat 1: platty - $2,530
Seat 2: CHiLLEN - $1,700
Seat 3: RattlinBones - $0
Seat 4: BurtBrockfield - $660
Seat 5: Krisxiii - $7,520
Seat 9: idosh69 - $2,590
End Of Hand #323283759
I've learned the dangers of overusing the slowplay, but I thought this hand warranted it considering the play of my opponents in what had thus far been an extemely wild SNG. I knew I could do well at this game if I tightened up, but I thought calling with this hand was the right move, and I'd just ditch it if I didn't hit the flop hard.
I couldn't have put either opponent on AJ or AQ. They may have been loose, but they were aggressive enough to at least put forth small raises on top hands. I guess maybe I should have thought twice about Q7 or J7, but really, what are the chances? And with the blinds being as high as they were, I didn't have enough chips to put out feeler bets (especially considering also my opponents' stack sizes.)
I was pretty much 100% sure that betting the flop would result in my opponents folding, netting only a 300 chip pot. Knowing their aggressive tendencies, I knew I could incite a bet, and get all my chips in with what I presumed was the best hand. When the ace came on the turn, I was actually jumping for joy! I thought it would be what got me action and would allow me to bust one of these guys. When a third spade came on the river, I was a little worried, but didn't think I could factor it into my decision.
So did I overvalue my two pair, or was I just extremely unlucky? Was a kind of crushing defeat, as I felt that I'd really been sharpening up my play lately.
Comments
As the hand played, just call the river, you had no idea where you were..:)
I'm trying to learn. You don't need to insult me. :-\
I thought this was a good situation to slowplay due to the play of my opponents. Upon reflection, I realize it's a bad idea to slowplay against multiple opponents. It was also likely unwise to push when the river could possibly have made a flush.
I don't slowplay very much since increasing my study, and I also know it's very likely to backfire in lower stakes games. But I thought there was an argument for doing so as I was playing this hand. If I was wrong, I'm okay with that. I don't mind being very wrong. I'm still very much a student of the game, and the worst thing I can do isn't attempting to learn from my mistakes. But I was hoping the criticism I got would be constructive rather than being belittled me for my inexperience.
And I thought I was being constructive by suggesting alternatives...
and I have no idea how much experience you have..
I haven't read any of the replies
I read the topic of "Was I wrong to slowplay... etc etc"
I say
YES
Mark
I would agree with this for 95% of hands... this definitely falls in that 95%
Slow play when you flop the nut straight, or a boat. Invite your opponent to try to catch up, but be weary of the board as it plays out. When the board starts to look scary, stop slow playing immediately.
Of all the hands you'll end up slowplaying, it should only equate to about 3-5% of your total played hands imo.
Sorry for overreacting. I just felt a bit crushed by your original reply. I posted because I genuinely wanted to know if it could be right to play the way I did, and felt like I was a donkey being reprimanded for whining over what he thought was a bad beat.
It might have been a donkey move. But I wasn't whining. I was hoping I'd done something right, but was ready to take my medicine if I'd blown it.
The straight possibility I somehow missed, which was an incredibly serious oversight on my part and a beginner's mistake. I'm not sure whether I was tired, or just enchanted by the possibility of doubling up off my great flop.
Sorry if I'm being an oversensitive jerk, but what am I, or anyone else, supoosed to learn from that? Certainly there are situations to slowplay. They're just very specific, and there are far fewer of them than novices think. If you're telling me I should pretty much cut out slowplaying until I improve my theory, I can appreciate that. But pre-judging my earnest question isn't helpful to anyone, even if you'd be right 99% of the time. I'm not completely stupid. I already know the dangers of slowplaying. I'm just obviously having trouble implementing this wisdom, as my board-reading skills and discipline still have quite a few flaws.
Yeah, gosh, I guess the A7 should have been exactly what I was fearing. I just felt like the chances of getting beat without very likely draws on the board was unlikely. (But then, stupid me, I didn't even see the straight possibility for some reason.)
It just felt unlucky in particular to get beat by a higher two pair.
But, you know, I'm really glad I posted this hand. Because as tired as I was, I might have gone to bed thinking I did the right thing and just got burned.
I've learned something, which was the entire point. Don't slowplay two pair!
Thanks guys. I'll try to make my next one less... obvious.
You also have to consider stack sizes, pushing here OOP will get you the 40% boost to your stack and a large boost to your equity in the SnG. Getting those 400 chips in a limped pot is a fine result, loosing those to the str or flush completeing on the turn is a mistake.
The bigger mistake here was not pushing preflop. There is 350 in DM in the middle and you have just over 10xBB. You should push in this situation.
1) Attack weakness, everyone limping in here certianly qualifies
2) ~10X, and everyone limping you should push
This is the kind of situation that sngwizard helps with
Now, I certainly defer to your wisdom, Redington--you've been a great help to me, so far. But pushing with the QJs--shouldn't I be scared to heck that I get called by a ragged ace that will win with high card?
Do I get called by the limpers, in this situation? The way these guys were playing, I think I quite likely could have (considering their own short stacks). I would have much rather folded post-flop when I didn't hit, and tried to steal the blinds a couple of times. But then, attempting to steal was very risky this game due to the titanic stack one seat left of me.
My dilemma is that blinds are fast at PKR.com--8 minutes long. They go 10/20, 20/40, 30/60, 50/100, 75/150. I'm not at home, so I can't review the tourney. But I'm thinking we were only 20 or so hands in, and this was only my first or second playable hand (and not nearly a monster, at that).
Just makes me wonder if I'm going to need to make coin tosses like this often, if I really need to move to a site with slower blinds, that will allow me to see more hands. (The downside is that most of the popular sites have a higher rake. But maybe their less fishy play would actually be better for me.)
This is what you need to learn to do in HBL in a fast structured SitNGo.
A raise is not based on the best hand it is an attack on weakness, HBL here scream weakness unless the BB is pushing calling very wide and they are setting up a Reraise all in, but umm I dont think that is happening here.
Yes you will bust out, yes you will catch and double up, but MOST times you get the blinds, that is how you play a short stack.
I'm just constantly surprised by the amount of risktaking SNG play requires. With my small bankroll, I haven't thought of cash games as an option. (.02/.04 NL on PKR.com has a minimum buy-in of $10.00, and that's a lot of money to potentially have on the line in a hand I can't get away from.)
I skipped over to Poker Stars to see what they had to offer in SNGs. I liked how rapidly they fill up, and the blinds are better. But the rake is higher, and they don't have any games between $1 and $5. I've had a lot of people tell me that $1 SNGs are high variance wherever you go, but I can't afford to play $5s. PKR.com has $3s I could move up to.
The only hand you can put your opponents on is two cards. Preflop limping combined with two streets of checking means nothing. I'd assume they're ultra weak and would watch out if they decided to play back at me.
You didn't get anything until the river, so I guess you didn't really KNOW that, did you?
What I'd like to know, how do you play this hand if you flop a pair of queens on a QT7 flop?
2 pairs isn't anything to go crazy with especially with that all-in re-raise.. it screams weakniess imo.
Bet the flop and turn if he calls the turn bet I check river and fold bet if he raise turn bet I fold.
I guess what I meant was that while they were loose and betting poorly, they were aggressive. So I would have expected them to raise pre-flop with AQ or AJ. Not entirely a relevant point after what I've learned/realized since writing my initial post. But was my reasoning on that point faulty? Honestly wondering.
I guess I meant I knew I could incite a bet presuming they hit a pair on the flop or turn. When they checked on the turn and went on to bet on the river, I was thinking one of them hit top pair on the turn and then was slowplaying it.
I would bet half to two thirds of the pot. I wouldn't slowplay a high pair when my opponent likely has an A or K in their hand, nor when there's a straight possibility on the board. Slowplaying any pair, with the exception of Aces with a very specific board, is extremely dangerous?
I subscribe to the school of "Bet Early, Bet Often" for poker. When you do a lot of betting, players have to open thier ranges to play back at you, and you win larger pots.
I was just talking post-flop. When you check, you don't gain any information, so you can't narrow ranges.
I think your thoughts are in conflict. They are either aggressive betting machines, or they are tighter deception players. If the guy his top pair on the turn and is aggressive, why doesn't he bet it there and then?
My all-in screams weakness? Well, even though the way I played the hand was extremely flawed, a call was exactly what I wanted considering my thought processes. Was a little scared of the possibility of a flush, though.
In my mind, I had them pegged as bluffing if they didn't have it, and slowplaying if they did. Obviously, you're right, there's a problem in my logic even there, as if that were the case, there would have been a post-flop bet. (Not that hand-to-hand actions won't at times vary, but that's not really relevant.)
I knew that I couldn't respect their play (unless they were good players masquerading as poor ones). But I probably didn't do a very good job of guessing their thought processes.
In a way, I'm not that disappointed with my result. While I still have a long, long way to go, I'm working heavily on developing strategies for SNGs with the help of you guys, and don't make nearly as many mistakes as I used to. When I think I might have (and I'm usually more than right), I try to get advice on what I did wrong and learn from it. I was just a little shocked by how incredibly wrong I was in this scenario.
My extremely fallible logic throughout the hand was that, often without a likely straight or flush, two pair is going to be the best hand. But I couldn't even trust myself, as I somehow didn't see the straight possibility, and my lack of action could have given someone a shot at the flush.
ABSOLUTELY the wrong time to slowplay!!
Babies die when you slowplay a set!
If there's no draws then theres no harm in seeing if the other guy will be the one to bet out, however, if there are any draws you have to bet.
I don't mean to hijack this thread, but I would like people's opinion about slowplaying a flopped straight. In my opinion, your hand never improves on the turn and river if you flop a straight. The time to bet it is when you flop it. I would hope to disguise the strength of my hand and encourage people with top pair or pair and a draw to call.