Do you make the call and why?
This is a hand from a couple weeks ago. 5/5 game at local GTA club. Your in middle position and get dealt KK. There is a strattle in this hand for $10 and two players call before Villian 1 makes it $40 to go. Villian 1 is a very TAG player and has only played a few hands at your table. When he plays a hand he always raises and is usually in position. He also typically makes a continuation bet of about 75% of the pot if the hand is checked to him on the flop. $40 is a standard raise for him. It is folded to you and you make it $80 to go, trying to isolate Villian #1 or entice him into making a further re-raise. Folded around to the SM who calls (Villian #2). Villian #2 is also tight but doesn't mind getting all his chips in the middle with a big pair. He previously pushed pre-flop for $300 with QQ and also called a big raise pre-flop with AQ. Tends to like the face cards. V#1 also calls the $40 raise.
Flop comes Q82 rainbow. SB insta pushes for $360 (there is about $300 in the pot). Villian #1 folds. Do you call? You have him covered.
I'm more interested in your thought process in deciding whether you would make the call. What factors do you take into consideration when deciding whether you call or fold?
Flop comes Q82 rainbow. SB insta pushes for $360 (there is about $300 in the pot). Villian #1 folds. Do you call? You have him covered.
I'm more interested in your thought process in deciding whether you would make the call. What factors do you take into consideration when deciding whether you call or fold?
Comments
Absolutly I'd call.
Small chance he'd raise with q,8 (2 pr).. I put him on AQ (maybe suited) and at that point you have him beat.
no brainer my chips are matching his at the middle of the table.
what ended up happening?
I dont think sets ever play this way, And I dont want a multiway pot with AA pre in a cash game OOP so I think you get that transparency preflop.
So I discount QQ/88/22 for sure. AA is possible but less likely. There arent, or shouldnt be, and 2 pair hands out there.
thought process -- not very deep in a live cash game with an overpair on a dry board -- easy call vs range at 2:1
I was going to say the same
The pre-flop re-raise with KK is not big enough. Do that, and then everything post flop becomes simple. With villain #1's raise, the pot becomes $80 (SB/BB $10, Straddle $10, limp x2 $20, raise $40 = $80). If you're going to raise a decent amount, adding your $40 call (p$120), your raise needs to be at least $100 ON TOP - so, $140, making the $10 limpers / straddles call $130 into a pot of $260, or the Villain #1 to call $100 into $260.
Your "raise" of $80 to go means the blinds have to call $75 into a pot of 160, or 2.1:1 odds, the straddle / limpers have to call $70 into a $160 pot 2.3:1, and the original raiser has $40 into a $160 or 4:1. Your crappy raise is giving the Villain odds to call with Ax. Bad bad bad raise. And that's not accounting for anyone else coming along for the ride. Someone else calls, and he's getting odds to call with a beer cap and a coaster from the strip joint next door. As for the others, I know a lot of people who will call with 2:1 odds or better, and depending on how much you have back, probably should call.
So, now you make it $140 to go, and let's say you get the same action, Villain 1&2 calling. So now, you have a pot of $455 (Villaiin 1 & 2 - 280, Your bet, 140, straddle, limpers, and BB - 10, 10, 10, 5). He pushes his $360 in, and you have to call $360 to win $815 with an overpair. Easy decision.
Also, you're either mis-recreating the hand, or you're wrong about middle position...
Seat:
1 - SB
2 - BB
3 - Straddle
4 - Limp #1
5 - Limp #2
6 - Villain #1
7 - One folder (you said folded to you)
8 - Cutoff / Hero?
9 - Cutoff / Dealer
10* - Dealer
Depending on 9 or 10 handed, you're either cutoff, or cutoff + 1, either way... late position.
As played, you can call off your money and complain about the bad beat you let them get to with proper odds, or you can fold and use it to reassure yourself and use as an example of why the "math" is wrong. Don't forget to add the self-delusion!!
Mark
im in for these reasons, but also maybe cause im a donk.
this
With regards to stack sizes, I had about $800 and V#1 had about $900. V#2 stack of $440 was decent for this game. Unlike most casinos, its not uncommon to see a lot of players buying in to a 5/5 game for $200. This was also a new table that had only been running about an hour so still not any huge stacks. I had doubled through V#2 earlier when I hit two pair with A2 vs his AQ. Villian #2 had rebought twice already for $300.
How TAG can he be if he might reraise with something like A10, AJ or any pair? Unless you think he's putting you on an absolute steal a TAG player would not reraise with mediocre hands. You're miles ahead of him in this hand preflop if he can't repop you back.
The one I fear the most post flop is the supposed tag player maybe calling with QQ, once he folds you have to be ahead here. If villain #2 flopped any set he's going to give the two preflop raisers some rope so you can start the betting for him (as previously stated before this post). At best, I have villain #2 on AQ so I call the push here.
Preflop, I definitely 3bet his raise (min) (this because I would probably have been 3 betting a variety of hands at this point) But...what do they think of you? What have you shown besides your A2? What is your range? ( to them?)
After the flop comes down Q high...get it in the middle before the other guy has a chance to finish stuttering "all in"..As Wetts (I think it was) said..no one shoves a set here...unless they are levelling you..which is also something I might do to an aggressive bunch..but whatever...it's definitely in the middle.
ok, this is often one aspect of my game I often forget to consider at the table. As this is my first time at this club, and I am more comfortable playing 1/2 or 2/5, I am usually very tight until I get a feel for the game. As noted, I did double through V#2 with two pair but this was in a hand when I was the BB and the pre-flop raise was I think a min raise (AQ actually didn't reraise). I also won a sizable pot when I flopped a straight with JQ and the other player had flopped the bottom end of the straight. I also won a couple big hands with nice size raises on the turn and didn't show my cards (flopped a set and also had an open ended straight draw in another hand). Haven't really shown any strange calls and I suspect V#1 realizes I am playing ABC poker but I don't expect V#2 really is thinking about what I might have (just playing hjis own cards).
can you explain this a bit further, when would you shove with a set.
It's pretty obv. what his image is.
He plays premium hands, or at least very good hand in position, and then post flop he sees monsters under the bed. If he doesn't his MIN two pair, you can buy the pot from him.
As evidenced by: Showing down two pair FTW earlier, and the dude's push into not one, but TWO raisers.
Mark
Fair enough.
While I tend to do this more online, than live...I go through aggressive phases in my game...ie:lots of 3 bets, 4bets, shoves on dry flops..etc. When I am doing this, and hit a set...if I feel like the others are getting pissed with me (because I tend not to balance soon enough..lol) and the flop is sweet (A K or Q or two of them on board) I will shove my set, and often get called by a tilted A9 or two pair or the likes...
As others have already stated, the (practically) min-raise pre-flop is horrible. Definitely raise the pot or more. You're trying to isolate the original raiser here, right? You don't want to invite a bunch of AX and suited-connector hands to come along and out-flop you. If villain #1 is TAG (although he sounds more like a LAG if you think his 4-bet range is that low), and might be strong enough to re-raise, then he's also strong enough to call a decent 3-bet.
[x] Donator
More seriously, you said you aren't used to playing 5/5 but are used to playing 2/5 -- short-stacked 5/5 is the same as a 2/5 game, no? Except maybe they rake the shit out of you a bit more.
don't get off track, focus on the original question posted. 160BB+ stacks are short stacked?
Not sure what this has to do with whether you make the call considering my stack has the raiser covered?
If I stick a cat in a microwave, will it actually explode?
Your definition of the open raiser as TAG is the opposite of your description of his playing tendencies.
The fact that you have him covered at 100bb makes this a fairly short-stack decision by live 5/5 standards. At least not deep by any definition.
I was merely asking why you perceive this as any different than a 2/5 game -- the extra $3 in the pot preflop is inconsequential and most 5/5 games play 200bb+ deep.
Your violent tendencies toward animals are concerning. Are you aware of numerous studies documenting a person's violent behaviours toward animals is a precursor to further sociopathic behaviours?
TAG is irrelevant to the hand in question as he folded.
I have played at many 5/5, even 5/10 games in the GTA, and if more than one person on average has a stack greater than 200BB it is extremely rare. I know of three 5/5 games happening as I type this message. I can guarantee that no one at any of these games has a stack in excess of $1k
I'm not violent towards animals, quite the opposite. Should I cite a couple of examples although these pertain to insects but you will catch my drift. On my morning walk to the GO train each day, I often come across snails on a rainy day that have wandered onto the sidewalk. As this walkway is often used by GO train passengers, and many snails get crushed, I will spend my time moving the snails back to the grass so they do not come to any harm. During the summer, my mother was in the hospital and one afternoon when I was visiting her, she had a ladybug infestation in her room. I spent about an hour of my time, moving each ladybug onto a sheet of paper and then releasing them out a small hole in the window screen. Obviously, I don't have violent tendencies towards animals. Maybe I realize that a vet may have a sensitivity to harming animals? Sounds plausible.
btw, is the microwave legend true? kristy, any videos on this topic?
ok, so this thread has taken a turn for the worse so this is what happened and my thought process in making the call. Wetts pretty much nailed it.
Based on the previous QQ hand, if V#2 had AA-JJ I would have expected a further re-raise pre-flop. With just a call, I likely put him on a pocket pair or AK, AQ, KQ. What really made me call this hand was the insta push. He didn't give it any thought, once the cards hit, the chips were in the middle asap. If he had a set, and two players raising/re-raising still to act, it would make no sense to push with a set and likely the best hand. Two pair made no sense as he seemed to be playing mainly face cards or pairs. He turned over KQ in the end.
Not really irrelevant as it sounds as though the true TAG player stayed in...which changes his range.
Regardless, a call is in order as was previously stated by all. NH.
TAG is relevant as your read is incorrect and will effect other hands played with this player.
If no one plays deep in your 5/5 games how is it different from playing 2/5? This is a serious question, I do not understand the difference. In my experience 5/5 is a no cap or 200bb cap game and players typically buy-in for $600-$1000.
So your repeated statements focused on injuring or killing animals was to upset me? Zing!
I think any normal human would have a sensitivity toward harming animals irregardless of profession.
PS -- someone tell how the eff to multiquote
Nobody buys in for more than 500 in these games, typically 300 range. I know it makes no sense (have discussed many times with blackmagicz), but this is the crowd at these clubs. And the clincher is they rebuy multiple times, sometimes $200 at a time.
I never mentioned harming animals; I would expect you need to put animals to sleep for medical purposes all the time, I never said to kill a healthy animal now did I.
PP like QQ or KK or AA are always re-raised in that club and sometimes you may see a re-raise shove with AQ or AK cause they want to race.
The only way I see a possible fold in this spot is if your villian is a smart player and can put you on a polarized range and knows for sure you have KK or AA when villian has a set of QQ....even then I still call and congratulate villian for making an excellent read.
No, it was at the club where they use square green $25 chips (like in Paris). Kind of a neat variation. Enough said as I know they don't like the publicity.
can someone please respond as to wether or not kitties blow up in the microwave?