Making a living at 1/2
So I have been thinking a lot recently about poker, which is not out of the ordinary for me. One thing in particular is making a living at lower stakes B&M games.
Now I know a lot of people share the thought that it is an impossible feat to accomplish. The prior statement is reinforced frequently for me, because when the topic comes up at the tables everyone seems to agree.
I however do not.
Using 1/2 no limit as an example, you absolutely can make a living grinding low stakes. Most players probably won't like how its done, or are unable to do it. (Hence the "impossibility" of doing it.)
First off, you must play your tightest, most straightforward poker that is humanly possible. I am talking only playing the top 10% of hands, and only the top 5% from an early position. So you need to do a lot of folding. You need to focus only on playing the big edges if you want to make this happen. So avoid expensive draws, and play the nuts.
Playing ABC poker will win you money, a lot of money at these levels. Especially when mixed with basic poker psychology, hand reading, and tells.
But you also have to play in the loosest games you can find, and avoid strong players. (Easy to accomplish since I would estimate no more than 1 in 10 1/2 players are any good. And that is being generous.)
Now, on to the money.
I will use my own monthly nut for this example:$2,000 ($1,800 expense, $200 leisure.)
To earn $2,000 a month, you must average $12.50/hour, or 6.25bb/hour.
That sounds like a feat, however with the game played wrong by amature players it is actually a lowball goal.
Let's say the average raise is $10 preflop, with 3 callers.(lowball estimates if you ever play 1/2) that puts $40 in the pot right off of the bat. Now take away the rake, $5, and you get $35. Assuming 25 hands an hour, you will use $7.50 in blinds every hour. Now if you can average just that one pot an hour, $35-$7.50=$27.50 an hour. Which is $15/hour higher than necessary.
Now this is assuming you can snag one pot on the flop with these numbers per hour. In a loose game, these numbers can be much higher.
So, assuming you have a bankroll that can take the swings of the loose play in low stakes, you can make a living at it. As long as your monthly nut doesn't get to high, you are good to go.
And I know, higher stakes makes an easier living, but my point is how it is possible to grind a living at low stakes.
Now I know a lot of people share the thought that it is an impossible feat to accomplish. The prior statement is reinforced frequently for me, because when the topic comes up at the tables everyone seems to agree.
I however do not.
Using 1/2 no limit as an example, you absolutely can make a living grinding low stakes. Most players probably won't like how its done, or are unable to do it. (Hence the "impossibility" of doing it.)
First off, you must play your tightest, most straightforward poker that is humanly possible. I am talking only playing the top 10% of hands, and only the top 5% from an early position. So you need to do a lot of folding. You need to focus only on playing the big edges if you want to make this happen. So avoid expensive draws, and play the nuts.
Playing ABC poker will win you money, a lot of money at these levels. Especially when mixed with basic poker psychology, hand reading, and tells.
But you also have to play in the loosest games you can find, and avoid strong players. (Easy to accomplish since I would estimate no more than 1 in 10 1/2 players are any good. And that is being generous.)
Now, on to the money.
I will use my own monthly nut for this example:$2,000 ($1,800 expense, $200 leisure.)
To earn $2,000 a month, you must average $12.50/hour, or 6.25bb/hour.
That sounds like a feat, however with the game played wrong by amature players it is actually a lowball goal.
Let's say the average raise is $10 preflop, with 3 callers.(lowball estimates if you ever play 1/2) that puts $40 in the pot right off of the bat. Now take away the rake, $5, and you get $35. Assuming 25 hands an hour, you will use $7.50 in blinds every hour. Now if you can average just that one pot an hour, $35-$7.50=$27.50 an hour. Which is $15/hour higher than necessary.
Now this is assuming you can snag one pot on the flop with these numbers per hour. In a loose game, these numbers can be much higher.
So, assuming you have a bankroll that can take the swings of the loose play in low stakes, you can make a living at it. As long as your monthly nut doesn't get to high, you are good to go.
And I know, higher stakes makes an easier living, but my point is how it is possible to grind a living at low stakes.
Comments
i challenge you to try though. just start going to the casino once or twice a week for a few months and keep track of all those days separately. then crunch the numbers and see if you are in the positive enough to sustain yourself.
EDIT: and just out of curiosity, why does it have to be $1-$2? is it because that's where all the fish are you assume? i don't play in casinos very often at all but from what i've heard i really don't think that the difference between $1-$2 and $2-$5 is that significant.
I used 1/2 because it is the lowest stakes you can usually find in a casino environment. You are also correct about 2/5 being incredibly fishy as well, but 1/2 is my example. You will easily make more at 2/5.(as the opening raises are much higher obviously)
And I actually did make a living at 1/2 a couple of years back for about 6 months. (I was still working, but I made enough to cover all expenses from poker in that time.) However, I was skilled enough to do it back then, I just did not manage my bankroll well and went broke. Had I knew then what I know now about bankroll management (and not blowing every cent I made partying outside of expenses) I would probably have been able to move to full on pro by now. Live and learn.
Thanks for pointing that out! I did miss the dealer tip, so turn that $27.50 into $26.50 ($1 per pot is standard tip). Doesn't really change much though.
I assume this means you don't pay taxes on your winnings as well.
In that time I was actually averaging $18-$22/ hour.(not sure where my logs are for that time, but it was in the $20 range.) The $12.50 referred to in my post is the minimum hourly required to clear $2,000/month.
And in that time period I was not declaring winnings since I was also working full-time, and not in "the business of gambling" as the tax people say. Which is hard enough to prove for em even if it was my sole income.(a few cases that have been in court have ruled that even an obvious professional was not seen as such. Basically seen as an enthusiast in the courts eyes, and not working because of gambling wins was equated to having to work more due to gambling losses.)
But I do see your point that $12.50 is definitely not a good enough number to support everything you stated.
Note I'm assuming that you're remaining profitable the whole time, just grinding more and more hours to make up for losses. It's much easier to get a $15/hr job and get paid for overtime.
You might be able to do it for a while. But then the time will come when you're in the 25th hr of the session and you're stuck $400. You're tired, and should leave, but the table is weak and there are 3-4 big stacks that are ripe for the picking. You decide to stay but you need a pick-me-up. So you take a sniff of cocaine. >:D You go back to the table and clean up, and now you got a new main man: cocaine! >:D
So, yeah, give it a try. It should work out well for you.
I bet the $20. an hr you made at 1/2 was not over a significant sample size or you didn't track carefully enough.. Talking 2-3 years back to the young regs at Niagara they would admit that none of them were really making a living at 1/2, just supplementing income from another source... As I recall the "best of them figured $15. an hour was max over a long period of time.
Where do you play?
Wait a minute. So according to you, you have already done this...? So why the thread arguing it's possible. Just post your numbers/finances of actually doing it. Next time I'd suggest starting the argument with that first.
I agree that it is a grind, and takes a lot of dedication to pull off. I enjoy the long grind sessions, and am completely in love with the game. I could probably do 100+ hours a week and be drained and dead and still be in love with poker. Unlike most people, I have been into and playing poker since I was a young lad, and I enjoy every aspect of the game. Yes, cold decks included.
And during my time consistently grinding 1/2 for marathon sessions, cocaine really helped to perk me up. :P hence the lack of bankroll kept from that period. Also didn't help going on aggro tilt at times. Cocaine is a hell of a drug. Lol
Because this was more of a discussion of the possibility, and what is necessary to accomplish it. That, and I am not sure where my old books are. Ha-ha
At the time it was river rock in Richmond, and no it wasn't a large sample (6 months) however I have faith that it could have continued well if I saved more as bankroll, and less for everything else I was getting in to.
And even topping $15 an hour is pretty good considering my current job pays barely more than that and I get by fine.
Also, 26 going on 27. Your read was a little off, but good try ;P
Low ambitions if $15. is pretty good, especially in Van..
Read might have been a bit off physically but I was referring to maturity level..
Like I said, considering I make just over $15 doing something I despise to get by, $15 is good enough to do something I love. This is also just talking about the possibility of living off of 1/2 stakes. Of course with a roll I would play higher. But the point is it is possible playing 1/2.
And you are way way off if you are going by maturity level. I have been a cynical old man since I was a child. Haha
fyp...
although I knw you're just trying to protect a donor..
I don't think it is so much stepping on people's dreams as it is failing to read the entire post, and understanding that it is just a post about the possibility of making a living at 1/2; and not a declaration of my intent to do so. Lol
If you can average $30/hour playing 1/2 over a huge sample size, you probably shouldn't think of moving up in stakes. That's a cushy living for low risk. Ha-ha Also, what sounds sad and terrible?
Considering the min wage in BC is $10.50, $30 an hour is very cushy in comparison. If you can't have a cushy lifestyle on $4800 a month ($30/hour @ 40 hours a week) you need to budget a little better.
I absolutely would love to make a $15/hour wahe playing poker. Of course I would want more, and would strive to play stakes that earn more. I would love to play for a living, even if it was just barely scraping by. I would be happy doing it, as opposed to being depressed constantly at a job I hate.
Obviously it depends on the situation. Not everyone is a professional. Thirty dollars in the USA is huge for a blue collar worker. Not many of those jobs around anymore down there. Even here is Canada a blue collar job @ $30/hr is pretty damn good nowadays, good luck trying to find one. If you're single (or married with a 2nd income) you should be set with that kind of money. You know, unless you're an idiot racking up 100K credit card debt and shit like that.
If you want to make a living playing poker I think you have to play at least 2-5 and even 5-10 to make a real go of it over the long term. Even then you have to be winning regularly.
His whole point is that he mathematically found a way to make it possible to sustain a living at 1/2. He did not say he was getting rich, he did not say that if you have a 3000 sqft home and fancy things that it would pay your mortgage, but merely one can get by off of playing 1/2. The fact of the matter is that for some if not most of us $15 an hour wouldn't nearly be enough, but again that was not the point of the post. I congratulate you if your are able to pay your bills each month by playing the game you love, I think some of us are jealous and envious of being able to do that.
I think though that if you can sustain making a living at the 1/2 tables, and have the skill and edge over the players, that once proven that you can do it and it is viable, should certainly look to increasing limits to 2/5 whilst holding those same edges and potentially make even more.
I can say this though, although it is viable to make $15 an hour per say, and paying your bills per say, the amount of emotional and physical tolls one would go through on that journey would be more than I could bare to deal with day in day out. I don't think the math is what kills the dreams soo much as the ability to stay motivated and true to what you are doing over the long run.
I do wish you good luck though and I would love to see some graphs or stats going forward should you choose to walk down that path.
-Cheers
In Calgary or Edmonton
I made over this in my 5ish years in AB...the games are super soft. This may change with the oil plummet though.
First off, I would like to thank you for reading my entire post, and taking it for what it is. As opposed to the cherry picking that has been happening. It is quite refreshing honestly. Lol
I will also be making another thread sometime in the near future posting stats and such from my runs at 1/2. As soon as I have a bankroll sufficient enough to do it, to support this post and maybe give some newbies a little insight into beating games in the low stakes, and what to expect in order to pull it off.
I thank you for your support, and look forward to any comments from you on my future posts. (Which will be many.)
Not only do you play in an all cash game and avoid taxes, but you also avoid all of your standard worker's "deductions". There's deductions for EI, CPP, a benefit plan they will force you to join, the new Ontario Pension Plan coming. I am probably forgetting a deduction or two.
It's been a year since I left my banking job. I remember getting paid around 60K a year which is about $30 and hour. However, when I looked at my pay stub, it showed my net pay working out to only around $15-$16 an hour for about 50% net.
If I was going to play full time, here would be my overall approach.
First, I'd rent a room in Barrie or Orillia. I'd want to be a short drive from Rama. IMHO, Rama has the softest 1-2 tables. I wouldn't stick around at Woodbine, despite the location advantage. I would however, wait until springtime. Last thing you need is no income because the snow and ice has prevented there being enough people on hand for a poker table.
Second, I would open up a tax free savings account. Assuming you don't already have one or have maxxed it out. I would take 20% of my monthly winnings and put it there for a rainy day. Half would go into a locked in GIC for about nothing in returns, just to ensure I maintained good discipline. I would also consider getting some Blue Cross private insurance. You're young enough that this isn't as big a deal.
Third, I would be very selective of the games I played. If I recognized a lot of regulars or if I got seated to the right of LAG player and the left of a Rock, I would probably walk away and come back. That's a big advantage to living close by. If the table isn't to your liking you can always come back.