Easy question....
Here's the situation....
8 people left in a live tourney. Money is 4th. You have 11k with the blinds 400-800 with a 100 ante. It is folded to you in the small blind and you look down to see As4h. You raise to 3200. BB pushes for 5000 more. There is now 12400 in the pot. Can you fold? Should you? Assume no real experience with the BB.
Please rank according to this scale
a)I fold easily.
b)I think about for a while....but fold
c)I think about it for a while....I have to call
d)Insta-call
e)You can come and play at my game anytime.
8 people left in a live tourney. Money is 4th. You have 11k with the blinds 400-800 with a 100 ante. It is folded to you in the small blind and you look down to see As4h. You raise to 3200. BB pushes for 5000 more. There is now 12400 in the pot. Can you fold? Should you? Assume no real experience with the BB.
Please rank according to this scale
a)I fold easily.
b)I think about for a while....but fold
c)I think about it for a while....I have to call
d)Insta-call
e)You can come and play at my game anytime.
Comments
Umm, why is there no reraise all in option? Aren't you pot committed with C and D?
Given these option, I go with B.
raise-folding like 1/4 of our stack getting 2:1 seems atrocious since the only hand that has us totally crushed is aces but i know nothing about tournament poker so maybe its ok.
but just shove
BB pushes for 5000 more.
This times alot.
In most cases a live player will only be re-raising with a better hand here 75% of the time. OP said he knows nothing about the BB so I believe its safe to say the BB knows nothing about OP. In that case BB would not be pushing light.
I also feel you can easily pick up blinds in the next hand or on the cut off therefore picking up about more than 50% of what you put in with this hand.
I also do not feel like shoving with A4 in this spot because most BB will be folding to a raise anyways unless they have a hand and will not be looking you up light at a final table when 4 get paid and 8 are left. In an online tournament this would be a totally different situation but having made numerous final tables in live games, no one is making a "move" in this spot.
Basically a raise is the same as a shove in this spot. You got the answer you wanted now fold and move on to the next hand.
800 antes. 3200 bet including small blind. 3200 +5000 raise. Sorry it's 12000 total. so call 5000 into 12000 pot.
Basically this situation occured last wednesday and the small blind made the call and the bb flipped over KJo. A4 held up and thought the call shouldn't have been made.....I disagreed. BB has less than 10 bb and could be pushing with anything.....A4 is favoured against a random hand (in fact it's only behind about 15% of hands.)
I know reading the thread is sometimes painful, but the point is not whether he should shove.....I can agree with that. The situation was already played out resulting in the decision to call. Is he getting the right odds to call/should he call. It's out of my hands that he didn't shove to begin with. Think of it from the perspective of a person trying to explain to their friend whether or not the call was the right one. "He should have just shoved.....but since he didn't he should have: a) called b)folded.
Just shove first.
a) call b) fold c) read thread
d).
I don't really get shoving first.. almost all the same stong hands call you..and you get none of the kjo type money. Bristol's structure moves too fast at that point to be really excited about just taking the 2k in blinds and antes.
(this is presuming a few things..like a: there aren't a bunch of REALLY short players, because this tournament is one in a series of three where you gather points by finishing deeper...and the points are VERY top-3-centric)
You shove first so he doesn't play well against you. If you raise less and he shoves I dont see how you can call. Its such a bluff vs bluff situation that you want to raise the amount to make your call easy.
That being said, I call the 5000. you're getting almost 2.5-1 on your money, and against a higher A or a PP thats isn't AA you're about a 3-1 dogg, so you're almost getting the right pot odds. Against anything else you're a favorite so yeah, call.
Wat?
BB isn't pushing any two against a SB raise with those shallow stacks. BB is expecting a call so you are not against a random hand.
I'll say what everyone else said.
Shove pre - you're not deep enough to play any other way.
As played call given odds.
plz respond?
The BB was shocked about the call, so he wasn't expecting it.
This is probably the closest of the shove/don't shove CPF hand histories, but I feel like all you guys prematurely ejaculate your chips constantly with a fear of the next street like it was Satan's home address.
( ) I think about for a while....but fold
( ) I think about it for a while....I have to call
( ) Insta-call
(X) You can come and play at my game anytime
C'mon, I can't seriously be the only one here..........
This is not a situation where you're afraid of flopping. villian has just over 10bbs and an M of 4. He's got to double up to stay in the tourny. Hero has just over 5M. They are both in a desperate situation, and they both would love to scoop pots uncontested.
What I meant to say before that you were confused about was this:
Lets say you raise 2.5x bb to 2000. He ships for 8200, a good play against this raise with almost any 2, another 6200 more.
it'll cost you 6200 to see a pot of 10200, all of a sudden you're not getting the right odds to call. How confident are you that A4 is ahead? you're only dominating A3, A2, against 33 and 22 we're a coinflip, and against hands like Kx its about 60-40. Any other PP or A and we're a 3-1 dogg. We can't call as there's far more hands that crush us then we beat, and even those hands we beat we're not that far ahead.
I dont understand why you want to keep KJ in there. You're not gaining much value by having KJ in the hand as we're only about a 60% favorite. He's almost getting the right odds to play against us, so its essentially a coinflip.
We also ship because there are hands that me might fold hand that we are behind, but not call us for his entire stack. These hands include 22-66 maybe 77 if he's tight, Ax where x is 8, maybe 9-, and fold hands we're not far ahead of like QJ, Kx, TQ, etc.
One of the keys to winning tournaments is making your decisions easy for yourself and difficult for your opponent. By going all-in you're done worrying about your odds, and you put a lot of pressure on your opponent.
This is not a situation where you're afraid of flopping. villian has just over 10bbs and an M of 4. He's got to double up to stay in the tourny. Hero has just over 5M. They are both in a desperate situation, and they both would love to scoop pots uncontested.
What I meant to say before that you were confused about was this:
Lets say you raise 2.5x bb to 2000. He ships for 8200, a good play against this raise with almost any 2, another 6200 more.
it'll cost you 6200 to see a pot of 10200, all of a sudden you're not getting the right odds to call. How confident are you that A4 is ahead? you're only dominating A3, A2, against 33 and 22 we're a coinflip, and against hands like Kx its about 60-40. Any other PP or A and we're a 3-1 dogg. We can't call as there's far more hands that crush us then we beat, and even those hands we beat we're not that far ahead.
I dont understand why you want to keep KJ in there. You're not gaining much value by having KJ in the hand as we're only about a 60% favorite. He's almost getting the right odds to play against us, so its essentially a coinflip.
We also ship because there are hands that me might fold hand that we are behind, but not call us for his entire stack. These hands include 22-66 maybe 77 if he's tight, Ax where x is 8, maybe 9-, and fold hands we're not far ahead of like QJ, Kx, TQ, etc.
One of the keys to winning tournaments is making your decisions easy for yourself and difficult for your opponent. By going all-in you're done worrying about your odds, and you put a lot of pressure on your opponent.
This. Poker is an easy game, make your opponents stress, don't stress yourself.
First, you are afraid of running your better than average hand. You're trying to shut down shop before the flop.
a: we didn't raise 2.5x, in this scenario we raised 4x and WE HAVE AN EASY DECISION WHEN THE GUY SHOVES. Note all the 'snap call' votes.
b: IF played as you suggested... you fold out all the hands that our shitty ace is ahead of or racing with. Your shove is getting you like 5:4 against a much tighter range of hands. His play is getting him better than 2:1 with random bs like small pocket pairs and kjo in the mix.
c: you don't set yourself up to lean on other players with further raises, as we've just announced to the table that we're in 'all or nothing' mode.
d: We ARE a little bit desperate at M5 which is why we are trying to get more chips in the pot when we're in such a favourable position, this is the time to take our shot to win.
Unexploitable Play and When To Use It by Vivek Rajkumar | Bluff Magazine January-2009
how do you expect to get any more value by raise-folding, or raise-"deciding" on the flop with effective stacks being a pot sized bet?
Haven't read the link, will now...
but the next person who says that I tolerate raise-folding, or am suggesting that you EVER EVER EVER get to the flop before putting all your chips in is getting stabbed in the eye with my stiletto.
And I hope that it is a lethal wound.
Also, Zoolook you are officially OFF my top 5 list of posters I want to make out with for not fully reading what I wrote..so there. :P
(Or at least I did want to..when you came of age in 3 years
Also iirc correctly Villian was 8200 at the beginning of the hand, so is over 10bb deep imo.
In before scrolling to find out.
It is because hands like kjo (or worse) will play that I'm advocating giving them every chance to do so easily. I don't want to narrow the range or eliminate the smallest PP's or any other random bullshit..I want the villain's all in to be as wide as possible.
What I am saying is that people itt voted 'shove' without realizing that it is fancy for 'I don't risk 5 cards when my hand is ahead of his range'
What's next, are we going to start talking about our over-valued tournament lives, folding aces preflop on bubbles, braiding each others hair and gabbing about America's next top model?
Balls out.