I'm not good enough to fold this...
Just curious how strong your hand has to be to call here?
4 handed NL game. Utg opens for 3.5bbs. You are on the button and reraise to 8 bbs. Blinds get out of the way. Utg thinks about it briefly and ships for 200 bbs and has you covered. That is when you utter that famous line. You hum and haw for a while. Utg tells you he doesn't want a call as it will end the game one way or the other.
Bit of background. The game has the 72 option where all the players pay you 2bbs if you win the hand and show 72.
You busted a few hands ago with 72 when you hit middle pair on the flop and shoved almost 50 bbs into top pair, turned 2pr then got rivered by higher 2pr. You are on tilt and re bought for 120bbs.
Utg is the most savvy player at the table. He has won a couple of 72 hands and recently got caught by you and showed the 72. He is a bit taggish in general but has opened up with it being 4 handed and 72 after all.
Discuss if you care to take a stab.
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4 handed NL game. Utg opens for 3.5bbs. You are on the button and reraise to 8 bbs. Blinds get out of the way. Utg thinks about it briefly and ships for 200 bbs and has you covered. That is when you utter that famous line. You hum and haw for a while. Utg tells you he doesn't want a call as it will end the game one way or the other.
Bit of background. The game has the 72 option where all the players pay you 2bbs if you win the hand and show 72.
You busted a few hands ago with 72 when you hit middle pair on the flop and shoved almost 50 bbs into top pair, turned 2pr then got rivered by higher 2pr. You are on tilt and re bought for 120bbs.
Utg is the most savvy player at the table. He has won a couple of 72 hands and recently got caught by you and showed the 72. He is a bit taggish in general but has opened up with it being 4 handed and 72 after all.
Discuss if you care to take a stab.
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Comments
Hint: not enough that it should be a factor in any decision u make, especially an all in
72 occurs as often as AA KK and AKs combined. Should those be ignored too?
You just got caught shoving 72 so you can't say it isn't a factor in your thinking.
Back to the question. How strong does your hand have to be to call here?
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The common mantra that gets cited is "you should make up your mind before you 3bet", however that doesn't really help us make a correct decision, it only helps us not have to "tank" in the moment (we still have to tank before we 3bet then).
I like to think of the hand from a different perspective, with information that doesn't immediately seem relevant but I think is the source of the "tough spot" namely what is going on outside of this particular hand. Again it might not solve the problem of never having a tough decision, but many "tough" spots for most people can be 'indirectly' (and often correctly) avoided.
To do this we should think of our 3betting frequencies (and maybe more importantly our percieved 3betting frequencies) since if they are tight we cannot expect villains 4bet range to be very wide (on average). Yet if we have a wider perceived 3 betting range then we can often make more comfortable calls with hands that most people have issues with. This also allows our villains to make more mistakes if they tend to open up to far.
If we have a wider perceived 3betting range and villain simply won't ever open up, then we can 3bet trash or non nut hands that play well post flop, and expect our villain to fold pre a lot, or to flat and play us oop (a good thing too!) .
It's true that we can induce action that isn't always wanted but if we use that action to our advantage we can often get our value hands paid off more by players that don't quite understand the 3bet/4bet game.
I don't specifically know your overall attack plan, say, for this table, but without a detailed 3betting history (and villains responses), I might assume that the easiest way for you to sort this decision out is to have a wider 3betting range in general and then we can avoid "tough" spots to some degree (especially 4 handed).
There use to be this guy at Rogers who would shove $500 with any two cards pre-flop. It didn't matter what he had, he would shove just to get action and dirty other players. He would even show you his hand to get action. Most players would still fold, even after he showed them 810off, because they didn't want to risk their entire stacks and get dirtied.
So startles, what is the correct calling range? Something tells me you know the math for this...
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I'd prob call AQo without thinking much about it, maybe TT and not sure how much wider I would go without already seeing a showdown. Maybe ajs and 99 if we feel they shove 72 a lot, not sure if those are exactly the next best hand. But if they are doing this kind of non standard stuff a ton then we can bust them by waiting for a hand. If they don't then I wouldn't really open up in this way anyways.
There will always be tough cut off hands, but sometimes we can define our villain better if we have 3bet/folded to them, or 3bet and they called and we showed down etc. They are a savvy player, and they won't generally 4bet shove 120bbs with air, and if they haven't seen you 3bet fold in position a lot then they'll generally put you on a value range that you don't normally fold.
I think if you are 3betting some bluff hands either to play post flop in position or to get some folds in spots like this then you are doing you job and don't need to stress about the really tough hands. Like AJo for example might be correct or wrong to call or fold, but its not going to effect your overall game as much as having a solid preflop strategy with good use of position.
Curious about what hands you are considering the boardline? It's obviously somewhat different for everyone regardless.
If I get some time on my computer I'll try to put together some hand ranges to aid the analysis.
Can you conclude from that there is some bluffing going on, probably not enough and that players are not being adequately aggressive?
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Wouldn't you WANT to call even more if you had a 7 or a 2 with an obviously dominating hand. Or am I missing something here?
Playing a 7,2 game becomes much more player dependent, fun to play in a low stakes environment but it certainly raises variance if played regularly.
cant even troll the old bugger anymore. :baffled:
Against anyone else I recognize the troll.... Against you, I figure you're serious..:D
:laugh:
This. I think the answer is basically no. We can't 'conclude' and rarely can, but we can just sort of slide our ranges a little wider and looser. But I really like to stay with a default and only adjust when I have 'proof' in the form of showdown etc.
So now thinking if we are bu and villain is cut off, we should prob call more than AQ and TT+ but its tough for me to give the default since i don't play much cash OR home games.
Whatever the default is though there doesn't seem to be enough evidence to really adjust hard though, and since there hasn't been a lot of 4betting then we can probably assume they have a strong range, with very little 72 in it.
I think what is most interesting about these spots was somewhat pointed out in the trip report I wrote. When 'crushers' play they have such a loose image that they can count on their villains generally opening up a ton. BTP and Shake are two great examples of this as they pretty much had the whole poker room perking up and paying attention to the 'action'.
Usually the answer to these spots for most players is to 3bet a little more and then we start to control the table enough to avoid any 'pressure'.
[TT+, AK, AQs+].
We need to play more short handed. Hu4r0Lz?
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Regarding the 72 game, I think the quote above is is a pretty good example of how people can get so carried away with this that it isn't about the 6BB's any more, it's for the "gotcha" at the end.
Startles point about only adding one more hand to the range is valid, but I'm wondering how, (if even possible) we can quantify the "going nuts" factor with that game. Did he ship it for a laugh, so he can flip over 72 soooted?
On the flip side, the shove doesn't feel like AA or KK... but perhaps thats exactly what it is... AA shoving because he knows it feels like 72? He's savvy, and he knows you are tilting... so its possible.
TBH I have no idea. I probably call JJ+ and AK, otherwise forefeit my 8BB's and wait for a better spot?
Can we please play $2/$5 7-2 game at the next Forumers' Night Out on July 25?
This is pure gold.
But you might be forfeiting 10bbs. DUCY?
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Plus now you have to call him the next time, at which point he'll show you AA.
Wat? dont think wb can be programmed for 72 game.
P.S. Congrats to Bill for cashing last night at Brantford.
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so i did some figuring on ranges for utg and button. these could be way off but they are a starting point for discussion.
utg raise 41%: 22+, A2s+, A2o+, K2s+, K8o+, Q4s+, Q9o+, J7s+, J8o+, T7s+, T9o, 97s+, 87s, 72s, 72o
btn 3b: 16%: 88+, A9s+, ATo+, KTs+, KTo+, Q9s+, QTo+, JTs, 72s, 72o
utg shove 8%: AdAc, KdKc, KhKc, QdQc, QhQc, QsQc, JJ-88, ATs+, AQo+, KTs+, QJs, 72s, 72o
I believe 4-handed, UTG would be opening fairly wide. For sure 72 but we could take out a few of the weaker hands if people think this is too wide.
I believe you would always 3-bet 72 from the button, along with a range that plays well against UTG's opening range. I could probably throw in some bluffy hands too.
UTG will only shove QQ+ sometimes, so I have narrowed the selection of these. I have put 72 in the shoving range as I believe this is what we all believe to be true but I'm not sure since we are both fairly deep stacked. He did fold/show 72 earlier when you 3-bet him, however, so he may be willing to shove this time.
It might be helpful as well, to describe your villains response to 3bets in general particularly whether they tend to be flatting or folding to them.
We can however note how weak their flatting range is vs your 3bets. I think then we might consider opening up quite a bit with hands that dominate their weak flatting hands, hands that win at showdown (Ax Kx etc.) and hands that play well postflop (suited connectors etc.).
This is why its always an interesting question to me, about finding the exact cut off hand to call, because its not really a huge loss if we call with 99 but should have only called TT+, yet when we start to open up and take advantage of their tendancy to flat our 3bets, the change in dynamic is not only directly profitable, but it also cuts down on the 'tough' decisions we will face.
It does seem quite interesting that they folded 72, seems like a standard thing to put it in their 3bet shoving range. I think it will be helpful to look at both scenarios as well as a mix of sometimes shoving sometimes folding.