$1 / $3 Cash game hand at Niagara

Everyone is fairly deep stacked, between $300 - $400 each

Sitting in the BB with T-T - UTG+2 raises to $16 - there was a straddle to $6 - mid position calls, folds to BB who also calls, straddle folds.

Flop is Q - T - 3 rainbow - original raiser leads out for $20, mid position calls -

BB ?

Comments

  • Concern is mid position with K,J or J,9. Raise to 60, hopefully keeping both in and hope for none str8 card (A or 8), then hammer turn. However if board pairs, count out a bet then slowly check like you don't like it pairing, hoping to induce.






    Keep in mind that I'm one of the worst NL holdem players on the planet though.
  • compuease wrote: »
    Concern is mid position with K,J or J,9. Raise to 60, hopefully keeping both in and hope for none str8 card (A or 8), then hammer turn. However if board pairs, count out a bet then slowly check like you don't like it pairing, hoping to induce.






    Keep in mind that I'm one of the worst NL holdem players on the planet though.

    spread that wisdom comp <3
  • DJ, I think you have to raise there. Anywhere from 60 - 75 sounds right. You have 58 in the pot preflop 98 after the bet and call. Make them pay if they are drawing.

    Better to take down a 100 dollar pot than lose your stack because some ding dong got the right price to draw to his straight.
  • sn1perb0y wrote: »
    spread that wisdom comp <3

    About me being the worst NL player on the planet? I think it's already spread pretty wide..
  • compuease wrote: »
    About me being the worst NL player on the planet? I think it's already spread pretty wide..

    you have experience on your side :p
  • sn1perb0y wrote: »
    you have experience on your side :p

    experience ? He just old .


    Comp.... You’re so old, when you were young, rainbows were black and white.

    You’re so old, the movie “Jurassic Park” brought back memories.

    You’re so old, you went to an antique auction and three people bid on you.

    Your so old you bought your first car from Fred Flintstones.

  • [/FONT][/COLOR]Your so old you bought your first car from Fred Flintstones.
    Mostly right, however I was the dealer who actually sold the car to Fred.. Barney co-signed, but I ended up repossessing it and attempted to sell it at that antique auction...

    Sorry for the derail DJ but I think you got your answer..
  • So.... DJ. What did you do ?
  • I would be flatting for a few reasons. 1. the play at 1-3 will not be as good so there will be many mistakes. I would keep all crap hands in, as well as hands that hit the flop and drawing hands. For example, original raiser is going to Cbet that flop 75 to 80% of the time as it hits their range. Mid position could easily be calling with hands like kq qj even 99 or 88 77 66 55 44 may peel one on that flop. If you re-raise you fold out all hands to give you value on future streets as well as hands like under pairs that may hit a set on turn or river which will give you even more value and only keeping in hands that draw and can beat you. You disguise your hand out of position and can check call turn or if you think it hits them check raise at that time.

    I think if you re-raise flop your winning a small pot when you could take a larger pot on further streets and if you build a pot on the flop, you are going to lead the turn regardless and then do what if you get re-raised on the turn? Check call if a safe card and maybe lead river for value.

    Just my .02
  • Btw if a player has a drawing hand there on the flop, and they get re-raised, it would be in their interest in a cash game to jam. Reason being the only way to get maximum value from it is to get it in as you are going to call and pay him off if he hits, but if he flats and hits turn you are likely to get away from hand limiting his value. so therefore by re-raising the flop you fold out all your bluffs and a solid player will be rejamming on you with a draw. If someone calls off as light as a single pair now they pick up more outs with a k over card. So by check calling you keep bluffs in, keep him leading out and assume you are drawing if he has hands like AQ and go for his stack on the turn or river. River if it is dry you can bomb it and it will look like a missed draw if in fact player has hand like AA KK or AQ KQ etc.
  • I would be flatting for a few reasons.

    So what do you do when the A or 8 hits, check/fold?
    Btw if a player has a drawing hand there on the flop, and they get re-raised, it would be in their interest in a cash game to jam..
    Isn't this what you want, to get stacks in as a close to 3-1 fav?
  • What do you do when the bad player flats the raise on the flop and an ace or 9 hits the turn and you have the betting lead?
  • You check and evaluate. The pot isn't huge, you can call one more time to see if they shut down on the river or if the board pairs and you get their stack on the river.
  • If I'm drawing I want to do a few things if I get reraused on the flop, I want to semi bluff win the pot outright uncontested and if not then I get a stack if I hit. The chances of maximizing value on the turn or river for stacks is a lot less likely if you call behind because your hand plays pretty face up and your action dries up.
  • Also there is no one size fits all in poker. There are different lines one may take given different scenarios in order to reach their perceived maximum value on each hand. I am not saying you must listen to me as you do as you feel fit. I am merely providing my logical argument for why I play the hand in question the way I do. And in both scenarios you may be happy with the results if they work in your favour, and if not, evaluate why you were unhappy with the result and where could you have changed the outcome any.
  • Results don't really matter and as we can see there are so many different ways to play this. By the way, this isn't my hand, it was Nicole's and she's been bothered by it, so I thought about posting it to see what other opinions are.
    She just flatted the flop, turn was an 8 and mid position caller had J-9, one of two hands that beats her. (Q-Q being the other and less likely) and she lost her stack.
    As others have said, raising the flop is an option but in my opinion, and knowing the mid position player, I don't think they fold to a raise on the flop. And the original raiser had A-Q and he called all the way down as well with TPTK.
  • I agree with Alex (Holy Crap, did I just say that? ;)

    Re-raising that flop kills a ton of your value, like the older lady did with her KK. Her overbet got AK to fold and the 16-outer to call. I also like flatting here as it disguises your hand more, giving you better value on future streets.

    As played, I thought her only mistake was open-shoving the river. At this point she's only getting called by a better hands and is folding out almost all lesser hands. She also takes the shove away from from busted draws, AQ, and any 2-pair hands that may be out there.

    Until then, she had kept the AQ in the hand, but got turned by the J9. I also think it's bugging her more because of who won the hand than how she played it.
  • Hey DJ,

    I think that the results do matter a lot. It is the results that allow us to evaluate the play and break down potential leaks and spots to improve IF there are any.

    So let me put it this way, that exact scenario is why I say calling is the best option.

    If your on the flop and you got mid set you have the second nuts on the board. Cbet is common but also could have the hands as described AK AQ AJ A10 AA Kk less likely QQ JJ all the way to under pairs. The mid position is most likely a weak top pair or drawing hand. If both players are on a drawing hand they take each other's outs and your even further ahead. If they have any single paired hands over pair even bottom set your getting paid. So if you reraise you fold out all weak hands that give value on future streets when the board bricks out the draw and the river you go for value and they cry call. Mid position folds.

    If you reraise there then the mistake is on the mid position if they flat call as they are giving away hiuuuge value. If you flat and then get in a spot where mod position jams on turn after a feeler bet you need to be able to fold this as there are very few bluffs here and it's all nutted. Now let's say Nicole checked the turn utg2 checks mid position bets out with the nuts and Nicole jams that is horrible as well because very very very thin value and most times called by better.

    So I check call flop. Check turn evaluate if it checks through or call behind one more time with the 9 and check river to see. By checking you keep bluffs in and can decide on the river to go for value or just call and save your stack. If you check river and mid position jams due to size of the pot you need to be able to fold. And I say need to be able to fold if your going to just flat the flop.

    If you are in a spot like what happened and you are playing in to the river and willing to call off a stack to a jam then it was played horrible because your allowing the player so much equity and implied odds by coming along even with a raise cuz they have position. So if you are willing to get all the chops in the middle, my suggestion would be to check the flop and jam on a flop bet. You now give them very little equity to draw out on you and they must decide if their outs and the size of the pot is worth it. Most times you will take it down there, other times your going to stack them when they call instead of allowing them to see a cheap turn and fold when they miss. And sometimes they are going to pay to draw and they hit. They were -ev to make that call in the position you out them in. Not to mention what if AQ calls behind your jam and mid position now feels forced to fold.

    Anyways that is just my .02 but you need to evaluate the results to find the leaks and spots to improve.

    Btw welcome to the dark side Glen.
  • Good to see some poker talk here on the poker forum.

    I learned some stuff reading these replies.
  • My bad advice is always free all you gotta do is ask. Hell sometimes you don't even have to ask and I'll give my bad advice.

    Just remember doing the same thing all the time gets old so mix it up once in a while and have fun. =)
  • What I meant by the results don't matter, is that the scenario got a good discussion going regardless of the outcome of the hand.
  • I don't think there's anything wrong with raising or calling... I'd certainly be mixing in both.

    Probably lean towards raising given that there are two opponents and I have crap a lot there... but I'd think it's close enough to be fine either way. Maybe just adjust based on table dynamic... ie raise more when I have an image that looks like I'm out of line (never happens!) and call more when one of the two opponents seems that way.

    Alex holy shit welcome back!


    edit... disclaimer: I am probably the third worst player, after comp and DJ :D
  • djgolfcan wrote: »
    What I meant by the results don't matter, is that the scenario got a good discussion going regardless of the outcome of the hand.

    Fair enough, just using it as a fire starter then =)
  • Bfillmaff wrote: »
    Alex holy shit welcome back!


    edit... disclaimer: I am probably the third worst player, after comp and DJ :D

    Thank you, glad to be back, missed a bunch of these crazy people so my hiatus has ended, that and I have let go of reasons which kept me away lol.

    P.s. It takes a strong man to hold everyone up from the bottom and seeing as im the biggest, ill take the title of worst player ;)
  • Someone with an OESD there isn't folding to a CR, neither will a hand like KJ. This is a 1-3 game where players hate folding AFAIK. I doubt someone is peeling with a pair between 4s and 9s, I've found lower limit games player will setmine and give up pretty easily. Obviously things could've changed, but this is a spot I'm going to try to find a way to play for stacks. You accomplish that goal by CRing here.

    IMO, pretty big difference if the effective stack is 300 or 400. If it's 300, a CR to 70~ will leave you a PSB on the turn with 1 caller. Where as 400 will leave you a slightly more awkward stack to jam the turn.

    I don't mind flatting if you had position, but OOP I rather take the betting lead.
  • djgolfcan wrote: »
    Everyone is fairly deep stacked, between $300 - $400 each

    Sitting in the BB with T-T - UTG+2 raises to $16 - there was a straddle to $6 - mid position calls, folds to BB who also calls, straddle folds.

    Flop is Q - T - 3 rainbow - original raiser leads out for $20, mid position calls -

    BB ?

    I'm raising here. Your job is to get stacks in. Low limit players don't bluff enough. Lots of players playing broadway hands hit this flop.

    Not raising is a huge blunder.
  • What was the action on the turn?
  • I think a raise to 55 to fatten up the pot. Then hope for a paired board turn or air ball and hope someone makes a big bet. If checked around on turn i jam it in. Could easily pump it 100 on turn also
  • I would be flatting for a few reasons. 1. the play at 1-3 will not be as good so there will be many mistakes. I would keep all crap hands in

    Your logic contradicts itself from the beginning.

    If the quality of play is bad, put more chips in when our equity is ahead.

    In other words, if mistakes are common because our opponents are bad - give them opportunities to make those mistakes. Calling and giving a card is not inducing a mistake.
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